What to expect first start in 10 years.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to manually advance the timing in order to lock it in place. Neither manual shows any diagrams. They say "It" only rotates in one direction. What is "it"? What am I rotating? Do I need to take the points plate off first?

The points assembly is attached to the engine with 2 long hex screws that the covers attach to. Loosen them and rotate the whole plate (it should have elongated holes), it won't change the gap, but it will change the timing. If you have to move it a lot, you will have to remove the AAU and re-position it.

Dave
69S

Robb2014 said:

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to manually advance the timing in order to lock it in place. Neither manual shows any diagrams. They say "It" only rotates in one direction. What is "it"? What am I rotating? Do I need to take the points plate off first?

Click to expand...

"It" is the points cam, which is part of the AAU. When static or at low RPM, the cam is held at the retarded position by two springs. As engine speed increases, the bobweights are thrown outwards which advances the cam's position relative to the AAU spindle and backplate and thus advances the timing.

If you insert a screwdriver into the points cam slot you should find that you can rotate the cam counterclockwise slightly (to full advance)?
When released, the cam should return to its retarded position, therefore you need to rotate the points cam to fully advanced and hold it there while you lock it at that position.

L.A.B. said:

Robb2014 said:

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to manually advance the timing in order to lock it in place. Neither manual shows any diagrams. They say "It" only rotates in one direction. What is "it"? What am I rotating? Do I need to take the points plate off first?

Click to expand...

"It" is the points cam, which is part of the AAU. When static or at low RPM, the cam is held at the retarded position by two springs. As engine speed increases, the bobweights are thrown outwards which advances the cam's position relative to the AAU spindle and backplate and thus advances the timing.

If you insert a screwdriver into the points cam slot you should find that you can rotate the cam counterclockwise slightly (to full advance)?
When released, the cam should return to its retarded position, therefore you need to rotate the points cam to fully advanced and hold it there while you lock it at that position.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it only moves about a quarter of an inch. I pulled the plate off and could see that that was all it took to move to full advance. Let me see if I've got this right... feel spark plug hole to determine compression stroke and that the appropriate side is firing on that stroke. Go to other side and retard timing to 28". Go back to points and loosen 2 hex screws... turn plate until points are in firing position, which is when they are starting to open but just barely open. Do to same for other set of points. Remove washer setup and replace cam bolt. And this should get it close enough to start so I can put a strobe on it?

Robb2014 said:

Yeah, it only moves about a quarter of an inch. I pulled the plate off and could see that that was all it took to move to full advance. Let me see if I've got this right... feel spark plug hole to determine compression stroke and that the appropriate side is firing on that stroke. Go to other side and retard timing to 28". Go back to points and loosen 2 hex screws... turn plate until points are in firing position, which is when they are starting to open but just barely open. Do to same for other set of points. Remove washer setup and replace cam bolt. And this should get it close enough to start so I can put a strobe on it?

Click to expand...

Sort of. Work on one side at a time. Only way to tell which side is firing is to look at valves, both should be closed on firing stroke. Lock weight mechanism fully advanced (notice the cam runs 2x (or 1/2, I forget) speed, so 13° on cam is 26° on engine). Get firing piston close to 30° BTDC. Mark on rotor should line up close to 30° mark on degree plate. Adjust firing point so it just closes/opens, a new style digital meter should have a shorted noise maker, use that and get the points to just open/close at that 30° position (disconnect the battery) or you can use a 12V light. Notice that each set of points has it's own adjustment cam, or you can just rotate the whole plate. The turn engine over to other firing piston and do the same with the other points set, but this time use the cam for that point so you don't mess up the other one. At this point take off the advance holder and you should be able to start it, but you will need a strobe to really time it correctly. That will show if your AAU is worn, you will see the timing wander around, even at 3000rpm.

As you can see, you can set the timing on each piston independently, and don't trust that one is right the other one is, look at it with the strobe. All I can say is when I did static timing it always started and ran fine even with a worn AAU, but the strobe fine tunes it and you then really know what you've got.

It's all in the workshop manual, and also in the riders handbook, with pictures, although if you haven't done it before, it really helps to have someone show you first. It will make sense once you've figured it.

Dave
69S

Robb2014 said:

Let me see if I've got this right... feel spark plug hole to determine compression stroke and that the appropriate side is firing on that stroke. Go to other side and retard timing to 28". Go back to points and loosen 2 hex screws... turn plate until points are in firing position, which is when they are starting to open but just barely open. Do to same for other set of points. Remove washer setup and replace cam bolt. And this should get it close enough to start so I can put a strobe on it?

Click to expand...

First.
Adjust both points sets to the required gap setting (see manual)

Lock the AAU cam at the fully advanced position.

Set the scribed rotor mark on the raised pad to 28 degrees on the timing scale (this is not retarding) with the pistons approaching TDC. Note there are two raised timing marks on the rotor 180 degrees apart, one will line up when the pistons are approaching Bottom DC so ensure you use the correct rotor mark.

Determine which cylinder is on the compression stroke (both valves closed) then set the points backplate so the relevant set of points is just on the point of opening, if that position is within the range of the points backplate adjustment slots all is well and the crank can be rotated one full turn (again to 28 deg BTDC) and the process repeated for other cylinder. If all is OK then the timing can be set more accurately by adjusting the individual points backplates (see manual) by using either the static timing method with the AAU locked or strobed with the AAU unlocked, if the engine can be started.

If however the points plate reaches the end of the slots before the correct adjustment can be reached then the AAU may have to be removed from the camshaft taper and re-positioned slightly.

This is really frustrating. I took both valve covers off, rotated back wheel till both valves were closed, index mark was nearby, lined that up on 28*, went back to points, got one so it was right on, the other one was close but couldn't get it closed enough to get continuity between the points, so I never knew how close it had been since it had opened. Did the procedure again, starting with the plate in midrange. This time I couldn't get the points to open enough to stop continuity. It appears this is where the PO was ten or fifteen years ago when the bike was last ridden. All of the screws show a lot of wear and both adjusting screws are 80 percent stripped, indicating that the PO had done a lot of fucking with this before he shoved it in the back corner of the garage a long time ago. My hope was to get the bike running with the stock ignition then upgrade to Pazon or something some time later on. Right now I'm wondering if this isn't a good time to abandon the stock ignition and go electronic. I was kind of afraid of doing the upgrade actually, as I've seen so many threads by guys who were equally as frustrated trying to get the electronics set up as I am right now with the stock. And... while my motorcycle mechanic skills are nowhere nearly as deficient as Franc the wedding planner or his cousin Bruce the interior decorator, I'll admit that I can find myself in over my head fairly easily. So I guess I'm wondering... what would Jesus do in this case. Would he persevere with the stock crap or toss it and order up a new electronic system and go from there? I happened to have gotten a few days of work in this month so I won't break down crying after I hit the "buy it now" button. PIsses me off... I could hear that motor running in my head this morning.

MUTTER FUME . :x

If theres a pommy car in the paddock , or a spares outlet , rob the distributor screws .

WILL PAY to remove the Auto Advace ' crap ' ( assembly ) CLEAN & check shaft fit . :?

If O.K. proceed . Check Points Plate THREADS for integredy . If O.K. grab new ( B.A. ? ) screws .
Stone contact Breaker faces flat , check fit square/ flat CLOSED .

To Time , :lol:

Remove Spark Plugs .

Center stand ( or solid crate under ) put in 2nd Gear .

Nudge rear wheel to put pistons @ T.D.C. & check & mark TDC position on primary inspection wotsit . Use a pencil down plug hole to find crest of piston rise .

THEN go back 31 degrees . BTDC.

Assembled points plate , C.B. centre of slots. Set Gap .016

Lightly pinch screws and swing advance fwd. A Cig Paper between points should be released AS Adv. hits STOP .


THEN do it again for the other cylinder.

This is all Character Forming , RELAXING ( :lol: :shock: ) and theraputic . And teaches the virtues off stillnes of mind and Endless Patiance .
Typically 45 minutes from scratch is Time Allocation .

Or toss it ( in the spares bucket ) and Fit Electronic . Contactless 21st centurie fit & forget device . :?: :mrgreen:

To my mind , the purple one is for the SS Combat Cam and consigning roadsigns to advisory .
the blue one is for pulling wheelstands & lighting up the rear tyre .

WAIT till you get to the CARBURATORS . :lol: :lol: :wink:
Better to fit NEW , I used 32 mm English Mk II Concentric .
Single carbs are for girls .

Like the Points Assembly , Treated IDENTICALLY , Both Function Identically . Near Enough IS NOT Good Enough . :x

Pazon Sure Fire at about $145 with free air shipping did the trick for me.
Great advance curve with no kick back potential down to 8 Volts.
Simple install.
Buy direct from manufacturer in New Zealand
http://www.pazon.com/

Matt Spencer said:

Nudge rear wheel to put pistons @ T.D.C. & check & mark TDC position on primary inspection wotsit .

Click to expand...

I don't see any reason to mark TDC? Wherever the TDC mark is made it will have disappeared from view in the timing aperture and be off the end of the timing scale by 28 degrees BTDC. All that's required is to line up the existing rotor timing mark with the 28 degree mark on the scale (the accuracy of which is still something of an unknown quantity).

Matt Spencer said:

THEN go back 31 degrees . BTDC.

Click to expand...

The standard ignition timing setting for points is 28 degrees BTDC and while 31 degrees BTDC is suitable for some electronic systems I think recommending 31 degrees is only likely to confuse the issue further.

If Robb cannot manage to get each set of points to open correctly by juggling the points backplate and points sub-plates then perhaps it would be better if he fitted the electronic kit.

L.A.B. said:

Matt Spencer said:

Nudge rear wheel to put pistons @ T.D.C. & check & mark TDC position on primary inspection wotsit .

Click to expand...

I don't see any reason to mark TDC? Wherever the TDC mark is made it will have disappeared from view in the timing aperture and be off the end of the timing scale by 28 degrees BTDC. All that's required is to line up the existing rotor timing mark with the 28 degree mark on the scale (the accuracy of which is still something of an unknown quantity).

Matt Spencer said:

THEN go back 31 degrees . BTDC.

Click to expand...

The standard ignition timing setting for points is 28 degrees BTDC and while 31 degrees BTDC is suitable for some electronic systems I think recommending 31 degrees is only likely to confuse the issue further.

If Robb cannot manage to get each set of points to open correctly by juggling the points backplate and points sub-plates then perhaps it would be better if he fitted the electronic kit.

Click to expand...

I think that's where I' m headed.

I think you should tough it out. It will run perfectly good on the points ignition and you will have learned something.

If you have the 6V coils you will be good with the Pazon, if you have the 12 V coils, you'll have to spend another $60 or more for the 6V coils. You can get the Pazon SureFire from MAP in FL in a day or so for the same price as NZ. If you need or want new coils, I'd go for the Old Britts which includes everything in the ignition system new.

If you want PM me and we can go over it on the phone. I'm home most of the time.

Yes, the screw adjustments are usually bunged up pretty good, but they should work. Just be careful with them, unlike the previous owners.

Dave
69S