What to expect first start in 10 years.

dave M said:

Rob, The lower photo is correct, the appropriate timing mark is in the middle of the slightly raised wedge on the rotor. I suggest that you pull the plugs and visually bring the pistons up to TDC, at which point the timing mark should be within reasonable proximity to the degree indicator tab. You can of course be more accurate in finding TDC with a dial guage, but even a pencil will give an approximate indication of where the piston is - keep a hold on it and don't break it off inside though. You would then have to have a look at one of the valve rockers to see which cylinder was on compression in order to set the points for the appropriate cylinder. Most Electronic ignition uses a 'lost spark' arrangement so it doesn't matter which is on compression from the point of setting the ignition timing. Do not assume that your rotor marks are correct, the same rotors were available with different key ways for different bikes, so unless you personally have seen this bike being timed with this rotor don't assume it to be correct. The woodruff key could also have fallen out during assembly and the rotor could then have moved out of position.

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I'm aware that the lower pic is correct. I'm trying to figure out where the index mark is on the top pic... (my bike) There are only 2 marks... the bottom pic shows 3.

Rob, actually the 'three' marks that you observe on the lower picture is only one mark. The other two on either side of the centre are actually shadow lines cast by the raised segment on the rotor. On your bike the marks look as though they have been scribed by somebody and are not the factory marks. That is why I suggest you start from a position of absolute knowledge by observing the pistons at TDC with your own eyes rather than relying on random marks on the rotor.

dave M said:

Rob, actually the 'three' marks that you observe on the lower picture is only one mark. The other two on either side of the centre are actually shadow lines cast by the raised segment on the rotor. On your bike the marks look as though they have been scribed by somebody and are not the factory marks. That is why I suggest you start from a position of absolute knowledge by observing the pistons at TDC with your own eyes rather than relying on random marks on the rotor.

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Thanks Dave... By the way... those marks in my timing window were very faint, almost undetectable. I darkened them with pencil for the pic. I think it might also be a good idea to pull off that primary cover and take a look inside.

Caution to stick anything in the hole as piston does not so much as push up directly on a probe but sideways more and more slightly moving up till snap and fishing starts. But got to know TDC best ya can but that don't show which jug is firing.

Bite the bullet and get discipline to open rockers and turn engine till side of interest rockers gone slack assuring both valves shut on a compression stroke. Then can make sense of which rotor cast mark is the right one not 180' off one. Everytime I've taken a short cut i've reversed the spark order for poop outs.

Auto adv. must be held in full adv to set the max timing mark seen on dial. Once both points show close to same firing degree, then try to start and ever so finely diddle adv till just backfire on starts then back off till just don't then put a light on the dial to get idea where Norton mounted dial to go by. Famous for being a handful of degrees off. Once happy can knife edge mark the real spot to time to but may agree with the dial in many cases.

OK... here's what it looks like with the cover off. Points set at firing position on right coil. How would it get this far out?

28* is about between the A and S in Lucas.

Robb2014 said:

Points set at firing position on right coil. How would it get this far out?

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Have you locked the AAU at full advance? If not, then that might explain why the timing mark appears to be so far out.

Rob, You are going about this backwards, ascertain TDC, then see whether the rotor marks correspond more or less with this, if they do set it to 29 degrees before TDC
and only then start looking at the points. The auto advance unit is on a taper on the end of the camshaft and might be way out. The points have a vast range of adjustment from correct to way out of time.

Robb,

We should obviously assume nothing about the status of this bike, but I suggest you go back and read what the guys have told you again.

And one thing you did not mention, because of course it is obvious isn't it, the tank and float bowls do have fresh fuel in don't they, not 10 year old stuff...and all the jets are clear aren't they?, and the throttles and chokes all move full travel easily right? You know when the chokes are down don't you? And whilst you are looking at a fat spark I think you are right to suggest any spark should do something when everything is full of fresh fuel....but even fat looking sparks can snuff out under compression if teh coil voltage is low because there are losses in the wiring connectors, did you check coil resistances?, all connectors? and change the condensers, regardless of if you think they are good. This is because no condenser (capacitor) likes to be left unused without being subject too a little power, they certainly can go bad all on their own. And those points are real clean aren't they?, I mean real clean, a diamond file is the best thing if you have one, and if you fit new points make sure they are clean and not coated in preservative stuff from manufacture.

It has been said that the AAU can be fitted anywhere, it is on a taper and just locked in by the mounting bolt.....it could be anywhere....can it have moved?...yes....why would it move just by sitting there?, well it probably wouldn't have.....but did someone or something move it?

And we should ask, and don't be offended, are you really checking when the points are opening, or closing? The AAU rotates in the opposite direction to the crank, so both run counter clockwise when you look at them from the appropriate side! Fully advanced is when the AAU cam is fully rotated against its springs, counter clockwise...

Make sure you have a good feel for which way everything is rotating and exactly what is happening. Don't trust the rotor, you have been told why, check with a degree wheel where the mark really is and make your own 28 degree mark.....who knows, maybe someone already has and you marked it with your pencil?

Like Dave M says, you need to verify the TDC and timing mark vs. the degree marks. Only then can you start fiddling with the points. I have a picture of where the AAU should be when the pistons are at TDC if you want to see it. Then it's time to lock the AAU full advance and start playing with where the points open in relation to 28-32 deg. advanced. Either your working with a way out of adjustment AAU or the woodruf key is missing or broken on the crank, but I doubt it. Figure out TDC first.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

Like Dave M says, you need to verify the TDC and timing mark vs. the degree marks. Only then can you start fiddling with the points. I have a picture of where the AAU should be when the pistons are at TDC if you want to see it. Then it's time to lock the AAU full advance and start playing with where the points open in relation to 28-32 deg. advanced. Either your working with a way out of adjustment AAU or the woodruf key is missing or broken on the crank, but I doubt it. Figure out TDC first.

Dave
69S

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First of all, to answer Steve, yes, carbs have been rebuilt and fresh gas is in tank.... and I don't mind people asking such obvious questions because sometimes it's easy to miss the obvious when you've got your head fully submerged in a project. What I was hoping for here, was for something obvious to pop out and make this easy. So much for that... I guess we'll have to do it the hard way. All good suggestions so far, thanks. I read through both manuals last night and will read all your comments again and then will start at ground zero with this thing.... and will assume nothing. This bike is now fully restored with the exception of this timing issue. It really would have been just too easy if after finishing the carbs I had just thrown gas in it, fired it up and driven away. I guess you could call this my October surprise...

DogT said:

I have a picture of where the AAU should be when the pistons are at TDC if you want to see it.
Dave
69S

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Dave, Thanks, that would be helpful. Please post.

The scribe marks you've made are obviously a mile away from the real timing marks on the rotor.

Your rotor appears to be standard issue. They are located on the crank with a woodruff key. If someone elected to leave the key out, the rotor could be anywhere. If the rotor is located correctly, the points cam is not in correct position. The procedure for setting that is outlined in detail in the workshop manual, and you need to hold the davance mechanism fully advanced while doing it.

Notice it's impossible to see the high lobe mark because it's covered by the stepped washer to lock the AAU fully advanced. However there's only 2 possible positions with the weight lever pins lined up with the screw holes. You should be able to tell once you know which piston is firing and then line up the opening set of points to the firing side. As the workshop manual says, normally the LEFT contact breaker in the distributor (to which a yellow and black wire is attached) is used for ignition on the DRIVE SIDE cylinder. But it doesn't have to be that way, but may be better to keep it like that so the next time you can look at the book. I would suggest you figure TDC firing on the drive side and you can go from there.

This should get your in the ball park enough to adjust the dwell (gap) and timing. Make sure your cam is not real loose on the shaft or you'll have the timing wandering around about 10°, looseness in the AAU means you can't really set the gap with any consistency and the timing will wander. If that's the case, time for EI.

Notice the AAU rotates anti-clockwise.

Actually this is with the piston at about 30° BTDC and the AAU held fully advanced, so you're going to have to figure some way to gauge 30° BTDC, or don't put the AAU advance washer on and it should be close to 0°. I think I'm right here, I'm sure some one will correct me if not. I confuse easily.

Like others have said, the degree marks can be off 5° or more. Mine happened to be real close.

Dave
69S

When at TDC, the timing mark on the rotor will line up at the left edge of the degree plate as it turns up from the mounting point on the outer primary cover.

Due to the fact that this is crank related, this position is non negotiable unlike the cam and timing side which is adjustable.

I couldn't help notice some melted stator material in the first picture. Perhaps some binding or misalignment of the stator has caused some interference to the point that the rotor key has sheared. They are not very substantial and rotor does not depend on a taper to hold it in place like the crank sprocket does.

If the proper placement of washers and spacers are wrong, the rotor can and will be totally dependant on the key to hold it in position even under stress of a misaligned stotor. This will make the key suseptable to failure.

.010" clearance is required between the stator and rotor ALL around. I use 3 or 4 strips of .010 shim stock and lay them in there as I tighten the rotor up.

Anyhow, you may need to pull the rotor to validate position and proper fitment.

maylar said:

The scribe marks you've made are obviously a mile away from the real timing marks on the rotor.

Your rotor appears to be standard issue. They are located on the crank with a woodruff key. If someone elected to leave the key out, the rotor could be anywhere. If the rotor is located correctly, the points cam is not in correct position. The procedure for setting that is outlined in detail in the workshop manual, and you need to hold the davance mechanism fully advanced while doing it.

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I didn't make the marks... I just went over them with pencil so they were more visible. Now that the entire rotor is visible, I can see that they could possibly be no more than a couple of random scratches. Of course, I'm not discounting anything, as I've seen some pretty weird shit come out of the PO up to this point.

And don't forget to lightly and light -grease up all moving and bobweight contact - movement points of the AAU. It gets so neglected for maintenance behind the points plate. Many don't survive time as the guide posts go dry and eat into things , delaying-sticking up a smooth advance. Oh yes , you must lightly grease those points felts too ! Every winter best. And yes that means re-timing again.

Yes, for sure, get some distributor cam lube and cover the whole thing to keep it from rusting and renew every 5000 miles/yearly at least. Your springs are most likely weak, so it wouldn't hurt to bend the tabs and tighten them up a bit. The weights shouldn't be loose when closed or you'll never get a good idle, or even a return to idle.

Dave
69S

Ugh, when ya remove the dang ole AAU ya got to go through most the re-timing of points plate that gets removed first to access AAU. But i agree mere oil even STP and break in thick stuff ain't gonna cut it on AAU nor will 5000 mile intervals of nil to no lube either. Bending the spring tabs out some is a clinical gem for me to try as sure enough over last 7-8000 miles my last dang good AAU is not retarding yet its free to turn and cam/bush/shaft not worn to wobble or stick, ugg. Guess what I've got to do not to get scared coasted down loose slopes on engine drag that just don't hardly drag any more and i ain't all that good with brakes on loose stuff yet going too slow skips out on stones w/o any momentum to catch ya, ugh. Out in public the once loopy Cdo idle is lacking too.

I was surprised how good mine ran with the worn out AAU. Even though the timing wandered around about 10° it ran and started fine. But the EI sure helped it.

Dave
69S