What do Wheels Weigh?

Dances with Shrapnel said:

and adds greater gyroscopic effect.

Click to expand...

Is that bad though ?
If you had wheels that weighed nothing, there is nothing in the gyro dept to keep you upright. (!)
Not that this is ever going to be reality, but there must be a threshold for this ?

+1 schrapnel

This is the explanation given by light weight wheel companies. Two gyros equal in weight and dimensions , one has it's mass concentrated at the centre (good), the other has it's mass concentrated at the perimeter ( bad)

Glen

And yet all these cruisers have gianormously wide rubber,
and seem to cruise all the better for it...

Exactly, big heavy gyro great for going in a straight line on the Prairies, not so good at going around the IOM or thru the Rockies
Glen

My (ahem) jap sports bike had fairly wide tires.
MotoGP stuff isn't exactly skinny either these days.

Would they be more speedy/nimble if tires went back to being rather narrow/scrawny ?
Although we well take the point about being light...

That's true, modern sportbike tires are wide but that is mainly to get power to ground. The high end tires are also as light as a feather.
My 160/70/70 Pirelli for the Thrux is 10 lbs 7 ounce vs 13 lbs 4 ounce for the relatively skinny 4.00x 18 Avon Roadrider for the Vincent rear. The Avon feels like it's made of lead by comparison, so skinny, yet so heavy. Then there's the tube to add to the Skinny tire, the other is tubeless, so the difference is even greater.

The moderns are definitely into light for wheels and tires.

Glen

A little more info on the MKIII rear wheel.

Rear sprocket with stub axle weighs 5 lbs. 5.2 oz.
Steel cush drive plate weighs 6.4 oz.

Combining that with the weights I posted previously on MKIII rear wheel,

Total weight of wheel with disk and sprocket is 26 lbs. 10 oz.

It's not quite right to compare that to other complete rear wheel weights because it includes the stub axle. I'll see I can find one of those to measure later.

Ken

So, I've summarized the info in this thread so far, and put it into some arbitrary categories. Couldn't figure out how to add formatting features here to make it more readable, so it's just straight text. I'm going to add some more component weights later (disks and calilpers, mostly). I'd eventually like to be able to make a list of all-up wheel, brake, sprocket, and tire combos for apple-to-apple comparisons. Sorry about the lbs/oz/kg/g data. I just listed them the way they are in the thread. I'll convert it all later. I'll update the summary periodically, as the thread gets more info.

Ken

WHEEL WEIGHT SUMMARY

Wheels that have been or can be fit to Commandos, some easy, some requiring major mods.
All wheels include bearings unless noted otherwise..

Front Wheels – Bare Wheel with Bearings

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 wheel – 12 lbs 7.2 oz.
Morris 2.15x19 aluminum wheel – 11 lbs. 14 oz.
Morris 2.15x19 aluminum wheel 5 bolt – 12 lbs. 12 oz.
Harley 2.15x19 aluminum front wheel -15 lbs. 14.2 oz.
EPM 2.15x18 front mag wheel – 8 lbs. 5.4 oz.
Yamaha TZ250 Asahi 3.5x17 aluminum front wheel – 8 lbs. 4.4 oz.
BST Flat Track 19" carbon fiber wheels – 6.25 – 6.875 lbs. With bearings and spacers.
1971 Norton front hub with SS spokes and non shouldered Excel 18" rim – 10 lbs. 9 oz.


Front Wheels – With Disk

JS Commando front hub with stainless spokes and Sun 2.75-17 rim, with large drilled disc – 16lbs. 7.4 oz.


Front Wheels – With Disk and Tire

Norvil hub and 11" disk (lightened) with Buchanon stainless spokes and non-shuldered Akront WM -19 alloy rim, Avon 110/80-18 AM22 with tube, and titanium fasteners – 24 lbs. 11.6 oz.
Norvil hub with Borranni WM3x18 alloy rim, dual 11.5" Norvil disks (drilled), and 110/80/18 Dunlop KR145A race tire – 30 lbs. per Holmeslice
Same Norvil hub/Borrani rim with single disk and 80/80/18 KR825 race tire – 21.3 lbs. per Holmeslice

Rear Wheels – Bare Wheel with Bearings

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 rear wheel w/o disk or sprocket, with cush rubber – 15 lbs. 10 oz.
Morris 2.50x18 aluminum rear wheel 6 bolt – 15 lbs. 4.6 oz.
EPM 3.0x18 rear mag wheel – 10 lbs. 2.6 oz.
Yamaha TZ250 Marvic 5.5x17 rear mag wheel – 8 lbs. 3.0 oz.
Barnes QC rear with Akront shouldered 2.50x18 alloy rim, Buchanan ss spokes, with spacers and bearings, sprocket, and swiss cheese disk, Avon 130/70-VB18 AM23 – 27 lbs. 11.6 oz.

Rear Wheels – With Disk, Sprocket, and Tire

JS Triumph rear hub with 1 3/4" spacer, strainless HD spokes, Sun 3.50-18 rim, with bearings and spacers – 13 lbs. 2.0 oz.

Parts

Stock Commando brake rotor – 5 lbs 4.4 oz.
Heavy duty tube 3.00 – 3.25-19 – 1 lb. 8.4 oz.
Heavy duty tube 4.10-19 – 1lb. 13.8 oz.
Dunlop K81 4.10-19 – 11 lbs. 7.0 oz.
Bare Excel flanged WM3x19 front rim – 2.19 kg.
Bare chromed steel WM2x19 front rim – 2.53 kg.
Dunlop K591 110/90-18 – 12.8 lbs. per L.E.N.
Avon Roadrunner 4.00-18 – 13 lbs. 1 oz. per worntorn
JS turned down and drilled Commando rear disc – 2 lb. 5.0 oz.
MKIII Commando cush drive plate – 6.4 oz.
MKIII Commando sprocket with stub axle – 5 lb. 5.2 oz.
Morad flanged 2.5x19 alloy rim – 2.2 kg. per worntorn
Excell flanged WM3x19 alloy rim – 2.18 kg. per APRSV
Stock steel WM2x19 rim – 2.53 kg. per APRSV
Dunlop WM2x19 steel rim – 2552 g. per gortnipper
Jones WM2x19 steel rim – 2662 g. per gortnipper
Stock front spoke set, including nipples – 1002 g. per gortnipper.
Stock rear spoke set, including nippels – 625 g. per gortnipper.
Bare front hub (disk brake?)– 1501 g. per gortnipper.
Bare rear hub (drum brake?) - 2912 g. per gortnipper.

Other

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 rear wheel with disk but w/o sprocket – 20 lbs. 14.4 oz.
JS rear wheel with disc and slick – 29 lbs. 15.6 oz.
Ronal cast alloy wheels, 1.85x19 front, 2.15x18 rear, with stock disks – 19 kg. per nortonspeed

Yes to your two questions.

Rohan said:

And yet all these cruisers have gianormously wide rubber,
and seem to cruise all the better for it...

Click to expand...

I test rode a Ducati Diavel (best-handling power cruiser?) and although it's 50 lbs lighter than my ZX-14, it felt 50 lbs heavier, especially during parking-lot maneuvers, where it felt like a three-wheeled log truck steered with a tiller. The rear tire always tries to steer the front. If that's cruising, I'll pass.

This is an update with metric weights converted to lbs. and oz., and a little text enhancing for readability

WHEEL WEIGHT SUMMARY

Wheels that have been or can be fit to Commandos, some easy, some requiring major mods.
All wheels include bearings unless noted otherwise..

Front Wheels – Bare Wheel with Bearings

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 wheel – 12 lbs 7.2 oz.
Morris 2.15x19 aluminum wheel – 11 lbs. 14 oz.
Morris 2.15x19 aluminum wheel 5 bolt – 12 lbs. 12 oz.
Harley 2.15x19 aluminum front wheel -15 lbs. 14.2 oz.
EPM 2.15x18 front mag wheel – 8 lbs. 5.4 oz.
Yamaha TZ250 Asahi 3.5x17 aluminum front wheel – 8 lbs. 4.4 oz.
BST Flat Track 19" carbon fiber wheels – 6.25 – 6.875 lbs. With bearings and spacers.
1971 Norton front hub with SS spokes and non shouldered Excel 18" rim – 10 lbs. 9 oz.

Front Wheels – With Disk

JS Commando front hub with stainless spokes and Sun 2.75-17 rim, with large drilled disc – 16lbs. 7.4 oz.

Front Wheels – With Disk and Tire

Norvil hub and 11" disk (lightened) with Buchanon stainless spokes and non-shuldered Akront WM -19 alloy rim, Avon 110/80-18 AM22 with tube, and titanium fasteners – 24 lbs. 11.6 oz.
Norvil hub with Borranni WM3x18 alloy rim, dual 11.5" Norvil disks (drilled), and 110/80/18 Dunlop KR145A race tire – 30 lbs. per Holmeslice
Same Norvil hub/Borrani rim with single disk and 80/80/18 KR825 race tire – 21.3 lbs. per Holmeslice

Rear Wheels – Bare Wheel with Bearings

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 rear wheel w/o disk or sprocket, with cush rubber – 15 lbs. 10 oz.
Morris 2.50x18 aluminum rear wheel 6 bolt – 15 lbs. 4.6 oz.
EPM 3.0x18 rear mag wheel – 10 lbs. 2.6 oz.
Yamaha TZ250 Marvic 5.5x17 rear mag wheel – 8 lbs. 3.0 oz.
Barnes QC rear with Akront shouldered 2.50x18 alloy rim, Buchanan ss spokes, with spacers and bearings, sprocket, and swiss cheese disk, Avon 130/70-VB18 AM23 – 27 lbs. 11.6 oz.

Rear Wheels – With Disk, Sprocket, and Tire

JS Triumph rear hub with 1 3/4" spacer, strainless HD spokes, Sun 3.50-18 rim, with bearings and spacers – 13 lbs. 2.0 oz.

Parts

Stock Commando brake rotor – 5 lbs 4.4 oz.
Heavy duty tube 3.00 – 3.25-19 – 1 lb. 8.4 oz.
Heavy duty tube 4.10-19 – 1lb. 13.8 oz.
Dunlop K81 4.10-19 – 11 lbs. 7.0 oz.
Dunlop K591 110/90-18 – 12.8 lbs. per L.E.N.
Avon Roadrunner 4.00-18 – 13 lbs. 1 oz. per worntorn
JS turned down and drilled Commando rear disc – 2 lb. 5.0 oz.
MKIII Commando cush drive plate – 6.4 oz.
MKIII Commando sprocket with stub axle – 5 lb. 5.2 oz.
Morad flanged 2.5x19 alloy rim – 2.2 kg. (4 lbs. 13.2 oz.) per worntorn
Excell flanged WM3x19 alloy rim – 2.18 kg. (4 lbs. 12.9 oz.) per APRSV
Stock steel WM2x19 rim – 2.53 kg. (5 lbs. 5.2 oz.) per APRSV
Dunlop WM2x19 steel rim – 2552 g. (5 lbs. 10.0 oz.) per gortnipper
Jones WM2x19 steel rim – 2662 g. (5 lbs. 13.9 oz.) per gortnipper
Stock front spoke set, including nipples – 1002 g. (2 lbs. 3.2 oz.) per gortnipper.
Stock rear spoke set, including nippels – 625 g. (1 lb. 6.0 oz.) per gortnipper.
Bare front hub (disk brake?)– 1501 g. (3 lbs. 4.9 oz.) per gortnipper.
Bare rear hub (drum brake?) - 2912 g. (6 lbs. 6.7 oz.) per gortnipper.

Other

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 rear wheel with disk but w/o sprocket – 20 lbs. 14.4 oz.
JS rear wheel with disc and slick – 29 lbs. 15.6 oz.
Ronal cast alloy wheels, 1.85x19 front, 2.15x18 rear, with stock disks – 19 kg. (41 lbs. 14.2 oz.) per nortonspeed

Thanks for putting this altogether Ken, it's a very useful thing for us Norton "Superleggera" fans.

Glen

lcrken said:

This is an update with metric weights converted to lbs. and oz., and a little text enhancing for readability

snipped

WHEEL WEIGHT SUMMARY

Wheels that have been or can be fit to Commandos, some easy, some requiring major mods.
All wheels include bearings unless noted otherwise..

Front Wheels – Bare Wheel with Bearings

snipped

1971 Norton front hub with SS spokes and non shouldered Excel 18" rim – 10 lbs. 9 oz.

snipped

Click to expand...

Ken,
Wow! Thanks for all the info. Is that 1971 front wheel a disc or drum model?

Charlie

It is never as simple as just changing one thing. Wheel weight, steering geometry and suspension damping all work together and affect handling. If you find a balance which works well, stay with it.

chaztuna said:

Ken,
Wow! Thanks for all the info. Is that 1971 front wheel a disc or drum model?

Charlie

Click to expand...

That's a good question, Charlie. Too bad I don't have a good answer. Going back through all the posts, I don't find where I got that info. But as a '71, I would expect it to be the drum model. I'll see if I have one out in my storage container, and if so, measure it.

Ken

awesome info Ken. I have yamaha cast wheels on my commando which I fit last year. I wish I had a decent scale to have weighed them on so I could add my information to your list, and also know where in that spectrum my wheels would land.

As far as unsprung weight goes, I reused the stock lockheed caliper on my front brake application which seems like a pretty heavy part to me. It probably keeps me from having a very light set up for my front wheel. I have an extra cast front wheel with a tire mounted, bearings installed with a brake disc. I should take it up to the post office and see if the post office person will drop it on the scale for me.

Thanks Ken!

You can have the mindset that if you put all the goods bit together, you must end up with a great bike - but you might be wrong.

You can have the mindset that if you put all the good bits together, you must end up with a great bike - but you might be wrong and it may exceed your wildest expectations.

I think Mz Peel has the lightest wheels so far with mostly off the shelf items though Lugwig and a few others might equal or exceed a tad but w/o as much brake power installed. There is no down side to lighter wheels lowering sprung and spun mass inertia for suspension road following and brake spin slowing efficiency. Any sense more wheel mass helps is pure imagination magical thinking or wise utilitarian safety limiter to go very fast on bad design cycle meant for cargo commuting economy only.

Dances with Shrapnel said:

You can have the mindset that if you put all the good bits together, you must end up with a great bike - but you might be wrong and it may exceed your wildest expectations.

Click to expand...

You would be lucky or very rich. There are people who work for years at getting their bike right, regardless of the expense and it still sometimes falls short. I think it is a mistake to try and translate what works on a modern bike into what is good for a classic bike. The concepts are very different. Some of the information is useful, but a lot - not so much. Light wheels are good - less inertia helps acceleration, but cornering and feel ... ? The quickest speed around a high speed bend is probably achieved when the bike feels positive and inspires confidence . The way a modern bike is set up to cope with the extra power makes it a handling slug. If you set it up to handle like a good classic bike, it would probably kill you. So the effect of lighter wheels is different in both cases.