Useless assorted Norton musings.....

hobot said:

As all the solid mounted vertical twin use BF rather higher than 50% I hold that Norton picked the BF that used the least costly metal in cranks yet could still be isolated by the amount of rubber area supporting the mass.

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Care to explain this? Are you suggesting Norton changed the balance factor when transitioning to the Commandos to save material costs?

You know we are only talking about maybe a few ounces of cast iron flywheel material. Any cost offset as a result of reducing the flywheel bob weight mass would certainly be more than off set by the energy and other costs of making that adjustment (machining, grinding and/or drilling).

Well I was done with this thread then my friend Tony returned my Norton Dominator Master Parts list, 63- 68. It is split into two separate sections, 63-65 and 66-68. The left and right pistons listed for the 63-65 Atlas are #24246 and #24247.

The 66 to 68 Atlas has a different piston, left and right for it are the 25389 and 25390.
I confirmed with Les Emery of Norvil that these latter pistons are flat top, 8.9- 9 to one compression and that the later Atlas bikes had them from factory.The earlier pistons are the dished 7.5 to 7.6.
Authors Mick Walker and Steve Wilson are correct in their statements that the later Atlas had higher compression.

The later pistons are those that are famous for losing the heads. As to why someone might find a later Atlas on standard bore fitted with the dished pistons, Les suggested the pistons may have been changed out by owners or dealers looking to reduce the vibes of the high comp setup. A change from high back to low could also have been year or two down the road to avoid the piston top problem, which was becoming quite well known.

He also told me that much of the problem with vibration in the Atlas came from the balance factor. It was done piece work by a Brit who did not care about his work. This fellow would drill a few token holes in the flywheels then send them back to Nortons with a bill for balancing. Les has found Atlas cranks ranging anywhere fro 40% balance all the way to 92%, all done by the same very low cost subcontractor!
He said the correct number is 84% which is what he uses for all new Atlas builds. At this number he tells me they are quite smooth even at 9 to one.

I don't know what Bengs ad is other than there is no featherbed Atlas shown on the part that is visible, but there is a Commando S , which is a model that first appeared in 1969.

While we're talking about vibration; when I first put my Triton on the road, I really did lose fillings from my teeth.

It occurred to me that the fellow driiling all those inexpensive but haphazard holes in the Norton flywheels might have secretly been on the Triumph payroll.

Triumph had the vibes too, didnt they?

Glen

It occurred to me that WornTorn put up three pages of a Norton parts book with no compression ratio specifications printed in them. Les Emery's opinion is just that, an opinion, not a factory document, which again you have failed to come up with to support your Opinion.

Maybe you simply do not understand the difference between opinion and actual documentation?

Norton piston part#s 25389 & 25390 are for 7.5:1 pistons, and you will not find any real documentation otherwise because there is none.

Anyone can find opinions saying anything at all, and we are simply not interested in them, get it?

Right, and your idea of documentation is an ad that you say is for the 1968 model year, except it for some reason it lists a 1969 Commando S? And no featherbed Atlas, which is the ONLY bike Mick Walker discusses in the aforementioned chapter and the model I was referring to?

He deals with the N15 and Ranger models in another part of the book.

Of course there was no Featherbed Atlas by 69, thats why it is missing, but never mind, that is DOCUMENTATION!


Forgive me if I go with the word of Les Emery, owner of Norvil, over the rabid babble of an internet troll named Beng.

Les Emery, Steve Wilson(author Norton Motorcycles), Mick Walker,(author Norton Dominators) are they all imagining things or is this compression ratio change some sort of conspiracy attempt?

On the later pistons, Les says he knows of one source who has buckets of them, n.o.s. but they are worthless due to the piston top problem.

It is not an "ad" but a 24" x 18" service poster, the sort a dealer would have hanging in his shop. Maybe it is from 1969, but it does list Atlas scrambler and road bikes. And if you can not see the entire thing, with the road Atlas in the right column, your computer display must be set to a low resolution, if you know what that means.

Berliner sold up to 80% of Norton production during various years in the 1960s, including about 7000 Norton Atlas scramblers. Odd that they would not know what compression ratio they were, especially since they were the ones that pressured AMC for most of the changes that occurred in the bikes, and even the introduction of new models.

I have a 67' Atlas engine in my basement, just one of many I have seen first hand with STD. dished pistons in it. But according to you they all have dished pistons because every one just happens to have been swapped out by someone wanting lower compression and less performance, okay...... I will admit I never had any scrambler's in my hands, only road bikes, never liked the scramblers.

I love Norton history, and opinions are not history. I would love to see a factory paper showing which engine number they started putting high compression in Atlas engines, if it happened then it exists.

I have supplements that tell which engine number they started putting improved connecting rods and other changes in the Norton twin, but I do not have them all, including any that might have something about an Atlas compression change.

I have talked to some old dealers that thought the Atlas bikes had flat-tops, some that says they had dished pistons and some that did not remember a thing about it, that is why opinion is no good when you are interested in facts and actual history.

So WornTorn that is why I am going to stick with Berliner's document and the other factory documentation I have on the early Atlas, until something else show's up, which I will gladly accept when it does, showing Berliner maybe put the wrong data on their service poster.

I care too much for facts and history to simply accept opinions and hearsay, which I think is the smart and conservative way to go to uncover the truth, not "rabid rabble" as you put it in yet one more of your ego-driven name-calling sprees..



P.S. Here is a link to download a pdf copy of the 1968 Norton maintenance manual, which lists 7.5:1 compression for the Atlas and Atlas scrambler models, something I would call documentation...:

http://www.eurooldtimers.com/eng/manual ... -1968.html

Triton Thrasher said:

While we're talking about vibration; when I first put my Triton on the road, I really did lose fillings from my teeth.

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You are not the only one; this is the reason why I gave up large capacity parallel twins. They simply just shake themselves to bits; don’t ask me how I know.

Bernhard said:

You are not the only one; this is the reason why I gave up large capacity parallel twins. They simply just shake themselves to bits; don’t ask me how I know.

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Yes, I found when I had a test drive of a large parallel twin (steam engine, as in railway loco) that if someone opened the throttle too hard (sticky lever) at low revs, the vibration not only was intense, you could actually feel the chassis flex. Don't ask me how I know....

Apparently, if you open the throttle REALLY hard, you can pull the front wheels off the rails.

Bernhard said:

Triton Thrasher said:

They simply just shake themselves to bits; don’t ask me how I know.

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Mine has ended up very non standard in the mounting and fastener department.

Rohan said:

Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???

Strangely enough, I have seen the VBNR Norton at a race meet, probably about 15 years ago, and it was FAST. They claimed then to have the fastest race 750 around, back then, and that was certainly no BS, that day anyway.. Can't remember who was riding it though, and if he was any good (the fastest bike doesn't always win, as any race afficionado will well know). Whether 100+ hp was involved is anyones guess.

P.S. Someone got to see inside their workshop at an open day, and was very impressed.
They were doing what Steve Maney does, before he got there ??
Are they still going though, haven't heard of them in ages - how old is that article ?

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Hope you all enjoyed Christmas and are celebrating on boxing day. I was looking for more information on a 750 Norton I picked up a few years ago from a guy in North Carolina.
I see that this tread is on this bike but many of the links are no longer active.
Beng, Grnadpaul, Foxy, Dances with Sharpnel and Rohan seem to have seen or known about the bike, Rohan posted the above

Foxy said:

Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???

Here's a few pic's of what the Village Bike motor and internals looks like. I wouldn't like to see these scatered in the gravel, I cant help but appreciate machinery! :wink:
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Hope you all enjoyed Christmas and are celebrating on boxing day. I was looking for more information on a 750 Norton I picked up a few years ago from a guy in North Carolina.
I see that this tread is on this bike but many of the links are no longer active.
Beng, Grandpaul, Foxy, Dances with Sharpnel and Rohan seem to have seen or known about the bike, Foxy posted the above comment and Foxy sent over pictures.
Foxy, please let me know what you know about the bikes racing career in Australia and the engine builder.

It was purchased by Giannini Racing along with a 500 dominator atlas race bike out of Australia and only raced once at Daytona by one of his riders that claimed it didn't have the brakes to run at Daytona so they parked it and sold it to a guy in Illinois that eventually put it in a clothing store as a prop. When I got it I called Frank at Giannini and asked about the bike and what he did with it. Only change he made was reducing the valve spring pressure from 280 to 210 and put the bike back together, hence the unpainted head.

When I got it it needed the carbs rebuilt and rejetted, a few oil seals changed in the motor, brakes rebuilt, tanked lined and cleaned from sitting for the last 10 years or more.
Put new fluids in and racing fuel and besides being a little cold blooded it fired right up. I took it around the neighborhood and got it just into third gear as the wheel raised up higher and higher and thought, man this thing has some power! .

Attached is Norton Club day we had that we fired the bike up and drank a couple beers. Start at 2:30 seconds.



Please let me know what you know about the bike... I don't find the bike Useless assorted Norton musings...

Son of Siredward said:

Hope you all enjoyed Christmas and are celebrating on boxing day. I was looking for more information on a 750 Norton I picked up a few years ago from a guy in North Carolina.
I see that this tread is on this bike but many of the links are no longer active.
Beng, Grnadpaul, Foxy, Dances with Sharpnel and Rohan seem to have seen or known about the bike, Rohan posted the above

Hope you all enjoyed Christmas and are celebrating on boxing day. I was looking for more information on a 750 Norton I picked up a few years ago from a guy in North Carolina.
I see that this tread is on this bike but many of the links are no longer active.
Beng, Grandpaul, Foxy, Dances with Sharpnel and Rohan seem to have seen or known about the bike, Foxy posted the above comment and Foxy sent over pictures.
Foxy, please let me know what you know about the bikes racing career in Australia and the engine builder.

It was purchased by Giannini Racing along with a 500 dominator atlas race bike out of Australia and only raced once at Daytona by one of his riders that claimed it didn't have the brakes to run at Daytona so they parked it and sold it to a guy in Illinois that eventually put it in a clothing store as a prop. When I got it I called Frank at Giannini and asked about the bike and what he did with it. Only change he made was reducing the valve spring pressure from 280 to 210 and put the bike back together, hence the unpainted head.

When I got it it needed the carbs rebuilt and rejetted, a few oil seals changed in the motor, brakes rebuilt, tanked lined and cleaned from sitting for the last 10 years or more.
Put new fluids in and racing fuel and besides being a little cold blooded it fired right up. I took it around the neighborhood and got it just into third gear as the wheel raised up higher and higher and thought, man this thing has some power! .

Attached is Norton Club day we had that we fired the bike up and drank a couple beers. Start at 2:30 seconds.



Please let me know what you know about the bike... I don't find the bike Useless assorted Norton musings...


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Zowie!

That's some roar! Beautiful bike. Bet it would be pretty fun.

Does it have a standard Wideline frame or Manx? Hard to tell with the black on black behind a black fairing! Care to divulge any information you may have on the chassis?

Glad the forum has lost the "edge" displayed in the earlier posts.

Hey, Paul. That's quite the bike. You may already have all this info, but I've attached the bike descriptions from the earlier sale in Australia and from the later sale in North Carolina.

This is the description from the Australian site Tradingpost.com, but I don't know the date.



And this is the description from the Suprememotos.com site in 2014 when the bike was for sale in North Carolina. It was also listed on eBay with a briefer description.



This was the picture from the Australian sale.



And this one is from the North Carolina sale.



I also have a few more from the Suprememotos site. I'll post them, if you don't already have them.

Ken

I might also point out, when talking about the 100hp number, that the bike ran on methanol when raced in Australia.

Ken

t ingermanson said:

Zowie!

That's some roar! Beautiful bike. Bet it would be pretty fun.

Does it have a standard Wideline frame or Manx? Hard to tell with the black on black behind a black fairing! Care to divulge any information you may have on the chassis?

Glad the forum has lost the "edge" displayed in the earlier posts.

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It looks like a standard Wideline frame to me. Ken has posted the information on the bike when I purchased it. For the most part it was somewhat accurate besides the Manx frame claim and the billet crank still being a bolt together billet crank and not a one piece crank.

lcrken said:

Hey, Paul. That's quite the bike. You may already have all this info, but I've attached the bike descriptions from the earlier sale in Australia and from the later sale in North Carolina.

This is the description from the Australian site Tradingpost.com, but I don't know the date.

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And this is the description from the Suprememotos.com site in 2014 when the bike was for sale in North Carolina. It was also listed on eBay with a briefer description.

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This was the picture from the Australian sale.

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And this one is from the North Carolina sale.

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I also have a few more from the Suprememotos site. I'll post them, if you don't already have them.

Ken

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Hi Ken,
Thank you for the posts I haven't seen the one from I don't have the Australian site Tradingpost.com thank you, it looks like the Suprememotos was the same one from eBay. It was on multiple sites when it hit Ebay for some reason. It looks like Foxy new the builder and posted some pictures of the motor, I reached out to him on a PM, hope he responds or maybe someone else that knows him and the builder. Happy New Year to you!

I think you are right about the frame, Paul. From what little I can see it doesn't look like a Manx frame. The pictures of the engine bits are quite impressive, though.

These are some of the other pictures from the Suprememotos site.











Ken

Ken, can you let me know how I can tell if it is a Manx or just a Wideline frame?
No numbers on the frame steering head or rear upright.

Son of Siredward said:

Ken, can you let me know how I can tell if it is a Manx or just a Wideline frame?
No numbers on the frame steering head or rear upright.

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Paul, the only things I could see clearly in the pictures are the lack of number plate brackets on the rear diagonals and the lacke of a rear seat support loop. One of the other really easy ones is if it has the gusseting box on the front frame tubes below the steering head. The street frames had it and the Manx frames didn't. Less obvious, at least at first glance, the Manx frames were all Sifbronze welded (brazed, if you prefer), while the production frames were all electric welded. Even less obvious, the radius at the rear of the top main frame tubes is larger on the Manx than on the production frames. Another fairly obvious one is that Manx frames had a full rear loop behind the seat with a bracket for the fender, which the production frames did not. There are probably other differences, but these are the ones that I recall.

Ken

Another one is that Manx frames had lugs on the drive side frame tube so that the tube could be used to carry oil that was then metered / dripped onto the primary chain. Whilst these are mostly blanked off and unused these days, they are seldom removed completely.