Uneducation

It is funny, but it seems to me that the Japanese motorcycle industry never really got in trouble or a bad reputation for some if it's misbehavior. I worked on Hondas in 1984 and the magnas and sabres had horrible metalurgy in the aluminum heads with stuff just going to pot super fast. My service manager had a Honda CB 1100 F which was super fast. It started smoking at around 20,000 miles so he called American Honda for warrenty and was told that the engine was only designed to last that long. From about 1979 to 1984 a lot of Honda models had the reputation of being made of play dough. Just seems like price and an overwhelming number of models to choose from saved them from the damning reputation that British motorcycles got.
 
When I had the rebuilding business going in the early seventies I was also starting heavy duty mechanical apprenticeship.

It never worked well to come off a Caterpillar D6 or D8 rebuild straight onto a Honda top end reassembly.

Even tho the shrouds and floor plates of the Cat were held on with cap screws that were smaller than many of the bolts on the Honda, using similar torque values on the honda stuff would do all kinds of destruction.

I learned very quickly that the Honda bolts and studs had to be handled like a warm turd in order to stay in one piece.
 
Seems strange that if Jap engineering is so very poor, that manufacturers such as Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki did not go to the wall like all the British bike factory's?
 
You obviously dont believe those of us who rode and worked on the Jap bikes back then, so why not buy one of those old Japanese bikes and restore it to ride like we have with our Nortons?

Then you could frequent a Honda /Suzuki/Yamaha site rather than waste time here telling us that our treasured rides are pieces of crap?

I guess I dont understand your motivation or what youpossibly hope to gain by coming onto a Norton site to slag Nortons and, by association, Norton owners??

Glen
 
worntorn said:
You obviously dont believe those of us who rode and worked on the Jap bikes back then, so why not buy one of those old Japanese bikes and restore it to ride like we have with our Nortons?

Then you could frequent a Honda /Suzuki/Yamaha site rather than waste time here telling us that our treasured rides are pieces of crap?

I guess I dont understand your motivation or what youpossibly hope to gain by coming onto a Norton site to slag Nortons and, by association, Norton owners??

Glen
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Back in the day I worked at a dealer who sold both Jap and Brit bikes, so have a fair idea of what the bikes are actually like to work on. Old Brit bikes have a lot going for them, and understandably have a big following. However its silly to suggest they perform better and are engineered to higher standards than Jap machinery. If this had indeed been the case, then I guess Norton, BSA, Triumph, and all the rest of the Brit manufacturers would still have been in business today, and the Japs would have gone to the wall.
 
I think there are a variety of reasons why the British motorcycle industry went down hill when it did. The main one that I never see mentioned is the fact that England basicly turned it's back on the UK when it joined the European Economic Community. Another would be that Japaneze motorcycles were generally percieved to be lower maintenance, faster (not) and more reliable. Back in '76 and '77 when I had my 750 Fastback it was known as a "mechanic's bike" I would say that I worked on it more than the honda owners worked on thiers. But I could also blow away the KZ 1000s on El Toro Road!!

To me it is sort of like the old steam locomotives. They never had a chance for electronic controls and only a few ever ran on liquid fuel. Only the latest ones had boilers which could have the water refilled without decompressing first. The last production one was built in 1958 and they pulled us all the way through WWII but who knew?? The diesel electric ones STILL don't come close to pulling what the old steam ones could pull but I don't think we will ever go back.

I would still buy an orriginal Norton over a modern crotch rocket but I don't think the general public will ever agree with me. One of my fantasies is for these resurrected companies like Norton or Indian to build exactly what they were building way back when. I think a Commando with the modifications known by guys on this forum would sell today and be extremely competetive. That is sort of what Harley is doing and they have a larger market share of road bikes than any other manufacturer in the world.

Dan.
 
"Back in the day I worked at a dealer who sold both Jap and Brit bikes, so have a fair idea of what the bikes are actually like to work on. Old Brit bikes have a lot going for them, and understandably have a big following. However its silly to suggest they perform better and are engineered to higher standards than Jap machinery. If this had indeed been the case, then I guess Norton, BSA, Triumph, and all the rest of the Brit manufacturers would still have been in business today, and the Japs would have gone to the wall.Carbonfibre "


financial success of a company is dependant on a number of factors. Great design and high quality material is probably a minor factor, unfortunately.

Some of the most sought after and highly regarded Classic motorcycles today are those produced by the Vincent HRD company from 1926 - 1955. Valuations go up every year, even though there are quite a number of the bikes available.
A series A twin recently sold at Bonhams for the equivalent of $440,000.

The design and outright performance of those bikes at the time they were built was light years ahead of anything else. If put in good working order, they still make a wonderful touring mount for long distance/high speed travelling today. I've ridden my 47 HRD 24,000 miles in the last few years, most of it two up with full luggage.

But the company was a complete financial failure.

The Jap bikes back then were the other end of the spectrum- made of cheap materials designed to go a short distance and then be replaced. But they were very affordable so the masses could buy them.

To the credit of the Japanese manufacturers, they improved their products greatly over time.

But in the 70s they were a poor substitute for the real thing.

I still don't undertand why you spend time here slagging British bikes. Must be a peverse pleasure I guess.
 
I like old Brit bikes, but dont have much time for those who suggest stock Nortons will run 12 sec 1/4 miles, and top 130mph! Suggestions like that are plain silly, and strangely only seem to be supported by ridiculous magazine "tests" rather than first hand experience!
 
worntorn said:
"Back in the day I worked at a dealer who sold both Jap and Brit bikes, so have a fair idea of what the bikes are actually like to work on. Old Brit bikes have a lot going for them, and understandably have a big following. However its silly to suggest they perform better and are engineered to higher standards than Jap machinery. If this had indeed been the case, then I guess Norton, BSA, Triumph, and all the rest of the Brit manufacturers would still have been in business today, and the Japs would have gone to the wall.Carbonfibre "


financial success of a company is dependant on a number of factors. Great design and high quality material is probably a minor factor, unfortunately.

Some of the most sought after and highly regarded Classic motorcycles today are those produced by the Vincent HRD company from 1926 - 1955. Valuations go up every year, even though there are quite a number of the bikes available.
A series A twin recently sold at Bonhams for the equivalent of $440,000.

The design and outright performance of those bikes at the time they were built was light years ahead of anything else. If put in good working order, they still make a wonderful touring mount for long distance/high speed travelling today. I've ridden my 47 HRD 24,000 miles in the last few years, most of it two up with full luggage.

But the company was a complete financial failure.

The Jap bikes back then were the other end of the spectrum- made of cheap materials designed to go a short distance and then be replaced. But they were very affordable so the masses could buy them.

To the credit of the Japanese manufacturers, they improved their products greatly over time.

But in the 70s they were a poor substitute for the real thing.

I still don't undertand why you spend time here slagging British bikes. Must be a peverse pleasure I guess.
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If the Brit industry had recognised the threat posed by Honda when the bikes first appeared at the TT, and come up with a meaningful response rather than simply rehashing designs some of which dated back to the 1930s (Triumph Twin), then it might have been a very different story.

I would agree the HRD is a very desirable machine, but like Bugatti cars are well beyond the reach of most people today. Must have been very difficult to sell the bikes at a profit when new though, even though they were light years ahead of everything else around at the time!

Always liked Brit bikes, but making ridiculous claims about them being superior in every way to Japs is a bit silly, in the light of the fact that the Japs are still making bikes today, and the Brit factories arent...............
 
you seem to get it here-

I would agree the HRD is a very desirable machine, but like Bugatti cars are well beyond the reach of most people today. Must have been very difficult to sell the bikes at a profit when new though, even though they were light years ahead of everything else around at the time!

and then lose it here-


Always liked Brit bikes, but making ridiculous claims about them being superior in every way to Japs is a bit silly, in the light of the fact that the Japs are still making bikes today, and the Brit factories arent...............


The point of my post was to show that financial success of a company often has nothing to do with producing a very high quality item, in fact often just the opposite it mainly has to do with profit per unit.
You feel the fact that the Japanese companies still exist and the British companies do not is proof that the British bikes were inferior. There are plenty of companies out there today making lots of money off shoddy products and lots of companies who built high qulaity items but are no longer in existance.
People go for the cheapest item nine times out of ten and it often gives the producer the highest profit per unit. Look at the preponderance of low quality Chinese stuff that is marketed today and all the wealth that has been generated by the companies producing this stuff.

Another example, the K car made Chrysler a great deal of money, but they were far from the greatest car ever built. I doubt many people would choose to collect of restore one for use today. They were affordable A to B transport and could be built cheaply. The Jap bikes of the 70s were much the same thing.
 
I think its more to do with the City of London banksters getting more bang for their bucks in foreign industry than UK's so let them whither on the vine rather than pump support to modernize. Read the fault forums on bikes of that era and even now to see they had as many or more faults as old school cycles. The fact we are comparing pre WWII industry with post WWII industry just goes to show how good British products were even with all the management acting with same morals as their bankster examples taking what they can then moving on.

Most these threads start with 750's comparison but that was rather later events after banksters came up with no credit check $500 limit credit cards and Japan had small bikes just under $500.
 
motorson said:
... I think a Commando with the modifications known by guys on this forum would sell today...
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This is a great idea but I would not want to see something with 200 h.p. weighing 360 pounds and can’t stop without going heels over head. That would just be another “splat” bike like the Mach III was. Still, it should be possible with modern materials to get 80 or 90 horsepower without too much trouble in a bike with good handling characteristics.
 
There are plenty of stock road machines around today with very close to 200bhp............Of course there are also many riders with more money than riding ability, and as in the case of the H1/H2 this is always going to lead to grief of some kind or another!
 
motorson said:
I think a Commando with the modifications known by guys on this forum would sell today and be extremely competetive. That is sort of what Harley is doing and they have a larger market share of road bikes than any other manufacturer in the world.

Dan.
Click to expand...

That is basically what the VR880 was, a highly modified "modernized" Commando.

In essence the 961 is an evolution of the Commando.
 
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