Uneducation

Matt Spencer said:
' Trade ' in general wasnt in good shape .
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This is very true but from what I read on these forums many people in Britain did not fully understand what had happened to their industry.

From the November 1978 issue of American Motorcyclist,

“Dumping charge upheld – Harley-Davidson’s charge that Japanese manufacturers are “dumping” on the American market at unfair prices has been upheld by the U.S. Treasury Department. The Treasury department said that the “dumping” charge was justified against Honda, Kawasaki, and Yamaha, but Suzuki – also named in the original complaint – was excluded from the determination...”

Some thought them innocent of the charge but there was the body of a previous victim elsewhere as we all know.
 
Murray B said:
Matt Spencer said:
' Trade ' in general wasnt in good shape .
Click to expand...
This is very true but from what I read on these forums many people in Britain did not fully understand what had happened to their industry.

From the November 1978 issue of American Motorcyclist,

“Dumping charge upheld – Harley-Davidson’s charge that Japanese manufacturers are “dumping” on the American market at unfair prices has been upheld by the U.S. Treasury Department. The Treasury department said that the “dumping” charge was justified against Honda, Kawasaki, and Yamaha, but Suzuki – also named in the original complaint – was excluded from the determination...”

Some thought them innocent of the charge but there was the body of a previous victim elsewhere as we all know.
Click to expand...

The UK industry primarily failed due to greed which resulted in bikes whose basic design was many years out of date, and which not many buyers wanted. Japanese bikes which were much better in nearly every way being sold at substantially lower prices, certainly meant the end came sooner for the Brit industry, but would not have done much to change the fact that buyers were not that interested in the ancient Brit products which were then on offer.
 
Sigh...I wish I could express myself better. Perhaps it would help to put it in story form:

H-D screams that HoYaSuKa the giant is trying to kill him. HoYaSuKa calmly responds that H-D is just a racist. You look over and see NVT lying dead on the ground. HoYaSuKa says he died of old age but there is a katana [“dumping”] sticking out of his chest. It went through the heart, poor fellow, so there is no saving him. When you look back you notice that HoYaSuKa’s scabbards are empty and he is now holding a wakizashi [more “dumping”] to H-D’s throat. Suddenly there is a blinding flash [45% tariff] as Ron Skyreagan’s light sabre severs HoYaSuKa’s sword arm. H-D survives the ordeal but NVT remains dead, poor fellow.

That’s what happened, more or less.
 
Through business and personal relationships I've had significant exposure to the Japanese culture. I honestly believe the market superiority they have achieved is not due to having a superior product, but having an acceptable product at a lower price.

That culture embraces the empire (aka the 1%) more than the individual. The (working class) individual will slave for peanuts, or rice, 10 hours a day for the privilege to live in a box. Thus the Honda can be sold for a whole lot less than a Euro bike, which is manufactured by individuals who value their own souls a hell of a lot more than their empire.... how many governments has Italy had since WWII?
 
DonOR said:
...I honestly believe the market superiority they have achieved is not due to having a superior product, but having an acceptable product at a lower price.
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Many people believe the same thing but I don't think that was what was really happening. After the U.S. found the Japanese mulinatonal corporations were "dumping" the ITC also found them guilty of the same thing. The ITC report indicated at one point they had 1.4 million unsold big bikes and kept lowering prices until they moved.

I used to work for an electronics manufacturer here in Canada. Business was good until the multinatonals came. They kept lowering prices until you could buy theirs at retail for less than what we had to pay for just the parts at wholesale. Of course they were losing money on every unit but were able to draw money from other parts of the corporation to subsidise the predatory prices. My employer had no other divisions and soon went under and I was laid off as the '82 recession began.

Most people back then never realized that there would be significant future costs for buying the cheapest item at the time.
 
Now it's China.
Selling very cheap and poorly made items.
But people don't seem to understand that they may as well just burn their money, even though it's less money than if they bought the same product made properly elsewhere.
So the manufacturers either go out of business or get their product made in China, and become just as bad.
graeme
 
To suggest what the British motorcycle industry had to offer in the face of competition from bikes like the CB750, H1-H2, and Z1, was comparable to the Japanese bikes seems rather misguided to me, and almost as though those making these claims have never ridden the Japanese bikes mentioned, let alone owned any of them for a reasonable length of time?
 
GRM 450 said:
Now it's China...
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Yes, I agree with you but my main point which I did not make very clear was that "dumping" proves that customers did not actually prefer the Japanese bikes over other brands. They "dumped" them because they could not sell them but the British bikes sold quite well until NVT collapsed.
 
1960 , note ; Triumph had fitted the splay port race head to the 650 and just introduced a reasonable frame for it ,
and introduced the unit 350 / 500s ( with a ditributor ignition :shock: ).
Norton wouldve had the ' 99 ' 600 ' S S ' and were soon to release the third series F B Manx short stroke ( relitively ) .

We presume the Piano factory mentioned had something to do with yamaha .


Uneducation
 
Murray B said:
GRM 450 said:
Now it's China...
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with you but my main point which I did not make very clear was that "dumping" proves that customers did not actually prefer the Japanese bikes over other brands. They "dumped" them because they could not sell them but the British bikes sold quite well until NVT collapsed.
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I worked at various motorcycle dealers in the 70s and it certainly seemed to me that customers preferred Japanese machines!
 
DonOR said:
Through business and personal relationships I've had significant exposure to the Japanese culture. I honestly believe the market superiority they have achieved is not due to having a superior product, but having an acceptable product at a lower price.

That culture embraces the empire (aka the 1%) more than the individual. The (working class) individual will slave for peanuts, or rice, 10 hours a day for the privilege to live in a box. Thus the Honda can be sold for a whole lot less than a Euro bike, which is manufactured by individuals who value their own souls a hell of a lot more than their empire....
Click to expand...
Not to mention that the machinery, factories, etc were new postwar, they had a clean slate to draw/engineer on. Having rebuilt the country, people were used to working long hours for little money for the good of the country. Same could be said for postwar Germany.
 
Murray B said:
The ITC report indicated at one point they had 1.4 million unsold big bikes and kept lowering prices until they moved.
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I believe you MUST keep lowering prices until your product sells, or you're stuck with them. Welcome to reality.

Better to have less money than you had planned on, then no money and a big white elephant that is worth less every day it's in your possession.
 
Matt Spencer said:
1960 , note ; Triumph had fitted the splay port race head to the 650 and just introduced a reasonable frame for it ,and introduced the unit 350 / 500s ( with a ditributor ignition :shock: ).
Norton wouldve had the ' 99 ' 600 ' S S ' and were soon to release the third series F B Manx short stroke ( relitively ) .
We presume the Piano factory mentioned had something to do with yamaha .
Click to expand...
It is great to read Mr. Turners words after so many decades but they help to illustrate my point. There is nothing in the article to suggest that he understood that giant corporations would be “dumping” product into one of his company’s largest export markets. What he seems to be focusing on is building motorcycles and assuming his competitors will be doing likewise.

grandpaul said:
Welcome to reality.
Click to expand...
My real world interface is functioning as well as can be expected.

The first all-transistor radios came out of Texas. After a few years the foreign multinationals came and started selling imported radios at far below cost. At one point you could buy a good imported 6 transistor radio for less than the wholesale cost of 6 transistors purchased in lots of 10,000 units. This was less about design and labor costs and more about “dumping” and predatory pricing.

Your government has lied but they do not always lie. [Unlike the Canadian Government which never lies or at least that is what they keep telling me.] The stuff they said about “dumping” seems to agree with reality fairly well. Of course my simplified description compressed time a little. The U.S. government determined there was “dumping” in 1978 and reacted “immediately” to protect the motorcycle industry in 1983! The delay is even longer than it first appears because the 1978 determination is referring to the years before 1978.
 
My simplified description also fits perfectly with reality.

If you are trying to sell something for more than someone else, it isn't selling till you lower your price.
 
Murray B said:
Matt Spencer said:
1960 , note ; Triumph had fitted the splay port race head to the 650 and just introduced a reasonable frame for it ,and introduced the unit 350 / 500s ( with a ditributor ignition :shock: ).
Norton wouldve had the ' 99 ' 600 ' S S ' and were soon to release the third series F B Manx short stroke ( relitively ) .
We presume the Piano factory mentioned had something to do with yamaha .
Click to expand...
It is great to read Mr. Turners words after so many decades but they help to illustrate my point. There is nothing in the article to suggest that he understood that giant corporations would be “dumping” product into one of his company’s largest export markets. What he seems to be focusing on is building motorcycles and assuming his competitors will be doing likewise.

grandpaul said:
Welcome to reality.
Click to expand...
My real world interface is functioning as well as can be expected.

The first all-transistor radios came out of Texas. After a few years the foreign multinationals came and started selling imported radios at far below cost. At one point you could buy a good imported 6 transistor radio for less than the wholesale cost of 6 transistors purchased in lots of 10,000 units. This was less about design and labor costs and more about “dumping” and predatory pricing.

Your government has lied but they do not always lie. [Unlike the Canadian Government which never lies or at least that is what they keep telling me.] The stuff they said about “dumping” seems to agree with reality fairly well. Of course my simplified description compressed time a little. The U.S. government determined there was “dumping” in 1978 and reacted “immediately” to protect the motorcycle industry in 1983! The delay is even longer than it first appears because the 1978 determination is referring to the years before 1978.
Click to expand...


Interesting that the Brit bike industry failed due to "dumping" far better bikes at lower prices! I guess bearing in mind the 1940s based designs Britain was selling in the 70's, they would have failed anyway pretty soon. Seems strange though that the US government was so supportive of the practice of "dumping" which couldnt have done HD an awful lot of good either?
 
Amazeing wot a few good bribes'll do .

We call it ' Democracy ' . Was a term , ' all pi.. & wind ' before "political correctness ' meant disagreeing with lies was criminal . Cripes , T.V. = brain washing
the Collective Delusion ,
Well chaps , looks like a few to many peasants again .

RIGHT , You Lot , " CHARGE Those Machineguns " .,
Profits at maxim are low .
We need to sell more bullets . :mrgreen:
 
grandpaul said:
My simplified description also fits perfectly with reality...If you are trying to sell something for more than someone else, it isn't selling till you lower your price.
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What you are saying is completely correct but if someone buys something on sale it does not mean they prefer that brand. My wife prefers brand N shoes but she will buy brand X if on sale especially if it’s BOGO. In fact it is never a good idea to get between my wife and her BOGO. Nevertheless she will always choose brand N if the price is about the same.
 
Murray B said:
grandpaul said:
My simplified description also fits perfectly with reality...If you are trying to sell something for more than someone else, it isn't selling till you lower your price.
Click to expand...

What you are saying is completely correct but if someone buys something on sale it does not mean they prefer that brand. My wife prefers brand N shoes but she will buy brand X if on sale especially if it’s BOGO. In fact it is never a good idea to get between my wife and her BOGO. Nevertheless she will always choose brand N if the price is about the same.
Click to expand...


The fact that in the case being discussed here, that the cheaper bikes didnt vibrate, leak oil, or fall apart when ridden hard, apparently didnt figure in the thinking of buyers, seems a bit strange?
 
Matt Spencer said:
Amazeing wot a few good bribes'll do .

We call it ' Democracy ' . Was a term , ' all pi.. & wind ' before "political correctness ' meant disagreeing with lies was criminal . Cripes , T.V. = brain washing
the Collective Delusion ,
Well chaps , looks like a few to many peasants again .

RIGHT , You Lot , " CHARGE Those Machineguns " .,
Profits at maxim are low .
We need to sell more bullets . :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


This the same sort of "democracy" that has allowed the war on "terror" to go ahead pretty much unopposed? Seems to me that if so, its the sort of "democracy" that means big profits for the privileged few, and everyone else having to face "cutbacks" or in some cases even death!
 
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