The workforce, is this happening everywhere?

Everyone must be in a IT job no one left to do the meanial tasks , and all the people on a benefit don't want to work .
 
Fast Eddie said:
I totally agree that a working person deserves to earn a living wage. There's not even space for any debate in my mind. But there is a difference between that and a genuine ‘starter’ wage… youngsters starting out on apprenticeships and such like. Kids fresh out of school, etc. Is your argument that there should be no such thing as a starter wage ?
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Hey Nigel, Dunno how it works in the UK, I'm sure you know of the minimum wage here in the US. it is my belief that the minimum wage should be a living wage, otherwise, what's the point. Lots of folks arent going to work "skilled" jobs, does that mean they shouldn't be able to live with dignity?


What's the law in the UK?
 
There's a lot of talk about "living" wage. Well, what SOME consider "living" is what others consider extravagant, and yet others consider meager. There is no such thing in a country this massive, with horrendous cost of living in some places (without valid basis, thanx again to local governments), and very low cost of living where the vast majority of what actually feeds our nation is grown and produced.

(just another one of MANY issues that people everywhere have to come to terms with, when deciding where to live)

Some KIDS (yes, over 18) need to stay at home and let the parents that PRODUCED them, RAISE them and pay for their lifestyle. They deserve each other.
 
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Average salary in the top two food producing states in the USA, 70k and 60k.

15$/hr living wage is 30k a year.

Doesn't sounds extravagant...
Sounds about 50% below the national average in fact.
 
Average salary in the top two food producing states in the USA, 70k and 60k.

15$/hr living wage is 30k a year.

Doesn't sound extravagant...
Sounds about half the national average...
 
NPeteN said:
Hey Nigel, Dunno how it works in the UK, I'm sure you know of the minimum wage here in the US. it is my belief that the minimum wage should be a living wage, otherwise, what's the point. Lots of folks arent going to work "skilled" jobs, does that mean they shouldn't be able to live with dignity?


What's the law in the UK?
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Our govt appears to be trying to balance both the needs of a living wage AND the notion of a starter salary with our laws. I actually didn’t realise this until I checked to answer your question! I think they’ve achieved a reasonable balance personally:

The workforce, is this happening everywhere?
 
Seems to me most younger people expect a higher level of living than I did. I didn't want what they want so it puzzles me. Made no money really for years but I did pick up a lot of useful hands on skills making me employable. Later finished uni and got a
guvmint job in edjukashin and was set from there. It is really a waste how few actual work at what they are interested in. But at some point you have do whatever it takes. No idea what society will be like when I am gone. It does make one wonder.
 
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Their being taught that everyday , you deserve a living wage o_O , I say you deserve what you earn, if you are a lazy slacker you get slacker pay . My employer owes me nothing I earn it if I don't earn it i guarantee I'll be shown the door. you want a living wage a wage you can live with well go do what you got to do to get it , 61years old and I still have two jobs, life is hard but I got a Commando :).
 
grandpaul said:
The root of the problem is corrupt government on BOTH sides.
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Not really. Labor (or is it labour ;)) is a market driven commodity, i.e. it's a supply and demand thing. Supply is shrinking and demand is increasing. This drives up wages and eventually leads to higher priced goods and services (i.e. inflation). There is a saying, "you can have something good, cheap, and quick but you can only pick two). I think these days you can only pick one

The Gov can play around a little bit with economic policy, but IMO it's a minor player compared with overall market forces.

Another driver is market effeciency. We've had an every increasing effecient market over the last 50 years or so (can probably thank the Japanese for that). In an effecient market, any disruption in either supply or demand will shock the system. This is why you see shortages, especially when there's panic and people start buying up shit.
 
TomU said:
Not really. Labor (or is it labour ;)) is a market driven commodity, i.e. it's a supply and demand thing... The Gov can play around a little bit with economic policy, but IMO it's a minor player compared with overall market forces.
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I disagree completely.

Ever since Food stamps, and even long before that, our government was allowed to enmesh itself in the marketplace , right up to the most recent monstrosity in my lifetime: HEALTHCARE.
 
grandpaul said:
I disagree completely.

Ever since Food stamps, and even long before that, our government was allowed to enmesh itself in the marketplace , right up to the most recent monstrosity in my lifetime: HEALTHCARE.
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Is there a basis for your disagreement? A lot of people make assumptions without truly understanding the facts.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm surmising your assumption is that Government assistance is taking people out of the workplace (i.e. making them freeloaders) therefore contributing to the labor supply problem. Simple google research shows otherwise. According to the USDA (who manage the SNAP program, i.e. food stamps), 72% of SNAP recipients have jobs. The problem is that even with jobs, they do not earn enough money to put food on the table. Another interesting statistic is that 48% are elderly, i.e. are not workforce eligible to begin with. So i don't think the Government "dole" is significantly affecting the labor market.


What is probably a bigger factor are population trends. The rate of population increase is decreasing and the elderly (non workforce eligible) are increasing, i.e. less supply. Currently, 17% of the US population is over 65. This is projected to increase to 23% by 2060. Also, population growth is expected to slow to 1.8 M/yr by 2030 and 1.5 M/yr after 2040 (it's around 2.3 M/yr now). Oh, and the growth is mostly attributed to emigration.


That is all long term trend analysis. What i'm thinking is happening right now is shock to the market from COVID. It will take some time for that shock to equalize.

And it's not because of the big bad Gov'ment :cool:
 
Jackman said:
Their being taught that everyday , you deserve a living wage o_O , I say you deserve what you earn, if you are a lazy slacker you get slacker pay . My employer owes me nothing I earn it if I don't earn it i guarantee I'll be shown the door. you want a living wage a wage you can live with well go do what you got to do to get it , 61years old and I still have two jobs, life is hard but I got a Commando :).
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Seems like you're mind was made up before you asked the question.

Silly me, forgot where I was for a second .
 
TomU said:
Is there a basis for your disagreement? A lot of people make assumptions without truly understanding the facts.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm surmising your assumption is that Government assistance is taking people out of the workplace (i.e. making them freeloaders) therefore contributing to the labor supply problem. Simple google research shows otherwise. According to the USDA (who manage the SNAP program, i.e. food stamps), 72% of SNAP recipients have jobs. The problem is that even with jobs, they do not earn enough money to put food on the table. Another interesting statistic is that 48% are elderly, i.e. are not workforce eligible to begin with. So i don't think the Government "dole" is significantly affecting the labor market.


What is probably a bigger factor are population trends. The rate of population increase is decreasing and the elderly (non workforce eligible) are increasing, i.e. less supply. Currently, 17% of the US population is over 65. This is projected to increase to 23% by 2060. Also, population growth is expected to slow to 1.8 M/yr by 2030 and 1.5 M/yr after 2040 (it's around 2.3 M/yr now). Oh, and the growth is mostly attributed to emigration.


That is all long term trend analysis. What i'm thinking is happening right now is shock to the market from COVID. It will take some time for that shock to equalize.

And it's not because of the big bad Gov'ment :cool:
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Some good points there.

The only main point I see different is the covid part. I think that has had a massive effect that way outweighs the long term trends you mention. And we have to remember that it was not covid per se that had the main economic knock on effects, it was the govt reactions too it.

Here in the U.K. we had several very long lock downs. You simply cannot lock down society, industry, etc and expect to switch it back on like flicking a switch. Quite simply, many companies didn’t survive so cannot switch back on. Many workers changed their thinking and decided not to return to work, go into study, change careers, etc.

This switch off / on issue is especially bad given global supply chains. It causes huge problems when they are stopped. Goods degrade, get disposed of, etc. And it takes months for supply chains to properly re-fill so that they can function, ie supply to a given demand, correctly.

Then on top of all of that, you have the financial part. During lock downs people simply could not spend anywhere near their normal amounts. On top of that people were allowed to take looong mortgage and rent breaks. And, most (NOT all) working people were paid 80% of their salary, basically by the govt.

So, we actually have a huge swath of people who come out of covid with more money in the bank than they’ve ever had before, PLUS two years worth of pent up purchasing demand… and then we wonder why inflation is rising! This is, and always was, absolutely inevitable and predidictable.

Also, not all working people are like people on this forum. By definition, people on this forum enjoying obtaining and using disposable income (money for luxuries, like Nortons). But not everyone is like that, some people are currently deciding that they simply do not need to return to work yet as they have enough money to finance an extended break. Plus lock down persuaded many people into retirement early. And, covid policies basically meant that many migrant workers returned home. So, there is actually a fairly sizeable reduction of workers in the system.

So, in short, govt covid policies (irrespective of whether you support them or not) have most definitely had a huge impact on two current major issues: labour markets and inflation. Of course, my observations appertain to the U.K. but similar can be applied elsewhere I suspect.
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Some good points there.

The only main point I see different is the covid part. I think that has had a massive effect that way outweighs the long term trends you mention. And we have to remember that it was not covid per se that had the main economic knock on effects, it was the govt reactions too it.

Here in the U.K. we had several very long lock downs. You simply cannot lock down society, industry, etc and expect to switch it back on like flicking a switch. Quite simply, many companies didn’t survive so cannot switch back on. Many workers changed their thinking and decided not to return to work, go into study, change careers, etc.

This switch off / on issue is especially bad given global supply chains. It causes huge problems when they are stopped. Goods degrade, get disposed of, etc. And it takes months for supply chains to properly re-fill so that they can function, ie supply to a given demand, correctly.

Then on top of all of that, you have the financial part. During lock downs people simply could not spend anywhere near their normal amounts. On top of that people were allowed to take looong mortgage and rent breaks. And, most (NOT all) working people were paid 80% of their salary, basically by the govt.

So, we actually have a huge swath of people who come out of covid with more money in the bank than they’ve ever had before, PLUS two years worth of pent up purchasing demand… and then we wonder why inflation is rising! This is, and always was, absolutely inevitable and predidictable.

Also, not all working people are like people on this forum. By definition, people on this forum enjoying obtaining and using disposable income (money for luxuries, like Nortons). But not everyone is like that, some people are currently deciding that they simply do not need to return to work yet as they have enough money to finance an extended break. Plus lock down persuaded many people into retirement early. And, covid policies basically meant that many migrant workers returned home. So, there is actually a fairly sizeable reduction of workers in the system.

So, in short, govt covid policies (irrespective of whether you support them or not) have most definitely had a huge impact on two current major issues: labour markets and inflation. Of course, my observations appertain to the U.K. but similar can be applied elsewhere I suspect.
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In my industry " steel fabrication" we work 2 years in hand
We are just going into steep decline now
Most of our work is in the square mile ,most of it office buildings
Who wants them now ?
 
My work is seasonal tractor trailer/trucking heating oil, low seniority holders get laid off in Spring, guys that stay on get zero overtime until the winter returns covid/government changed that , those that took layoff got an extra 600 dollars on top of layoff pay which amounted to a covid layoff worker making more money to stay home as opposed to a senior driver who stayed for a straight work week and zero ot. No logic that’s the government way we had volunteers for the layoff some didn’t return by choice . Oh and next week more free money is in the mail
 
Jackman said:
Their being taught that everyday , you deserve a living wage o_O , I say you deserve what you earn, if you are a lazy slacker you get slacker pay . My employer owes me nothing I earn it if I don't earn it i guarantee I'll be shown the door. you want a living wage a wage you can live with well go do what you got to do to get it , 61years old and I still have two jobs, life is hard but I got a Commando :).
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YAHTZEE!

"Entitled" generation was years ago, this generation is the DEMADING generation, and they'll destroy anyone that doesn't meet their demands.
 
In the fall of 74 a forge shop posted a help wanted ad on the board at my high school (it was a trade school for those that knew they were not collage bound). Machinist student wanted for part time work. I applied and got the job at sixteen years old. The work consisted of running die head threading machines, tracer lathes, multiple spindle drill presses, manual machining on lathes and work in the saw shop running cold cut and power hack saws. By state law. I forbidden to work in the forge area of the shop.
I started at $3 an hour working 5 hours after school and sometimes 5 hours on Saturday.
Four nickle raises in a years time. Health insurance included for part workers.
The situation at home wasn't good. I asked for permission to move out. He said you would never make it.
I had run the numbers before hand. We sat down ran the numbers. He asked question, I was ready. Rent, food, car insurance all that could be thought of. Keep in mind I had no intention of dropping out of school, I wanted an apprenticeship.
Money was left over after all cost were tallied. I was told no anyway.
The point of my post is, if almost fifty years ago a seventeen year old kid can earn enough to buy his own used car, rent a one bedroom apartment and just plain out take care of himself on a part time job, what has gone wrong today that both parents need to work to barely make ends meet.
 

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