The 650SS

If you read Colin Seeleys accounts of those years, the battles between the factory prepped Norton 650 of Derek Minter, the Dunstall 650 of Dave Downer and a whole gaggle of riders was fairly evenly shared between them.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7se ... er&f=false

Factory prepped ??

Brands is a relatively short circuit, not the long fast flowing corners needed by the smaller single bangers ?
Derek 'the King of Brands' from previous years (on his Manx !) may have had some advantage ....

I would really like to own a Manxman. I believe they were the best 650 ever, and that includes the bonneville, although a 1963 unit bonnie would also be great to own. I don't know why but I still love that old oil leaking, rattling garbage, especially when they've had race cams fitted. Sometimes, very rarely I hear one of those old bikes revving out, and it still gives me a real thrill. The Japanese twin cylinder bikes usually have 180 degree cranks and sound prissy, and a four cylinder bike or a two stroke would have to be the most uninspiring machines ever, even if they are blisteringly quick after you've played with them. A ducati wouldn't be bad, if the cost of a rebuild didn't send you bankrupt.

Manxman and the ss are essentially the same bike, but visually quite far apart. The blue paint job, red seat and high bars vs the grey/black chrome SS with flat bars makes for two very different looking bikes.
A friend has a very nice Manxman, but I have to say I am still working at aquiring the taste for the red/blue high bars look.

Glen

According to Ken Molyneux, who held the lap record atWestwood, the 650ss just made a lot more power than the Manx or g 50.
Westwood had 900 feet of elevation gain in a very short track, so any BHP advantage would be instantly apparent.

Glen

Seeing pics in Seeleys book online that showed the 650SS with full fairing and GP carbs fitted, and all the race bits in quite a low looking chassis - makes you wonder what the potential of those was - gone with the closure of Bracebridge St.....

Derek Minter, 'King of Brands', is listed there as holding the lap record - on his Manx.
But doesn't say quite when that was, or what happened afterwards.

BTW, Dave Downer, who beat Minter on ocassions with his Dunstall 650SS, tangled with Minter in 1963, and was killed in the resultant crash, Minter recovered. A rising young star gone - who knows what could have been... ?

acotrel said:

I would really like to own a Manxman. I believe they were the best 650 ever, and that includes the bonneville,

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Weren't the Manxman fitted with a single carb, on a non-downdraught head.
That makes the 650SS definitely the one to have, if performance is the name of the game...

worntorn said:

According to Ken Molyneux, who held the lap record atWestwood, the 650ss just made a lot more power than the Manx or g 50.
Westwood had 900 feet of elevation gain in a very short track, so any BHP advantage would be instantly apparent.

Glen

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P.S. Recall seeing the racing at Cadwell Pk Lincolnshire, some years back. Tight twisty little track, with a l-o-n-g hairpin.
The All-powers race at the end of the races, standout rider was Stu Rogers, on his prewar Inter 500.
Blitzed all the manxes and later twins and the odd Vincent even - he was still accelerating into the hairpin,
when everyone was already braking - only one who trusted his brakes ?
Mebbe the rider has sommit to do with it ??

Agreed, the rider is a huge part of the equation. In this case Ken was a competitive Manx rider until he installed the 650 ss engine in his Manx. After that he became truly "unapproachable" at Westwood.
The Manxman had same twin carbs and downdraught head as the 650 SS. I have seen compression ratios of 8.5 to one, 9.0 to one and 8.9 to one listed for the Manxman. Pretty sure they are the same as the 650SS at 8.9 to one, so it is an identical engine to the early SS.
Later SS had a few things changed, higher output oil pump, bigger carbs, smaller Commando sized exhaust (better for power) and a different ignition, plus a few other changes.

I've just put my 650SS on the lift to install the Newby Belt drive and clutch. I have had trouble with the stock clutch since day 1.
It likes to slip under hard acceleration. The throttle response and acceleration of the bike is quite amazing. On rare occasions when the clutch would hold, the front end would lift a few inches off the pavement under full throttle in first and part way thru 2 nd gear. This happens just by twisting the throttle when underway, not by intentionally lifting the front end with the clutch release.

My Commando won't do that, but it could have something to do with Herb Becker and his trusty die grinder. He couldn't resist leaving his mark on the SS inlet trac when it was in his shop for a valve repair with the previous owner.

Glen

'My Commando won't do that, but it could have something to do with Herb Becker and his trusty die grinder. He couldn't resist leaving his mark on the SS inlet trac when it was in his shop for a valve repair with the previous owner.
'

Might have more to do with weight distribution. An old style British bike should spin the back wheel before lifting the front.

It is an old style British bike, older in style than the commando. But it is also 50 lbs lighter than the Commando.

Glen

My Seeley 850 is a lot lighter than a 650SS, and probably has a lot more power. It has never lifted the front wheel. Nor has my mates very fast Triton 650.

Send the motor to Herb Becker, when he's done it will lift the front end!
Your bike is probably higher geared?
Glen

Might have more to do with weight distribution. An old style British bike should spin the back wheel before lifting the front.

Most ive seen at the drag strip are preoccupied for the first 20 ft. to NOT let it get up to far , normally aim just off for weight transfer .

The C'do being transport & supposed to last a decade or better , Didnt try the holding 3.000 plus engageing clutch . Would expect BOTH actually .
Like on the Dirt . Actually a salivateing Alsation mightve induced it once . Once settled mucho throttle induced fishtailing. But acceleration was mandatory .

:lol: :lol: Similar situation on Final Iteration of the Pre Unit Bonne , turkeys attempting to car jack it , :? was somewhat spectacular . Coinicedently
a old fat in the forestry returned his when he was in the Airforce around 62 , as he had flipped it twice . Not sure if he tried to ride it a third time . :lol:
( was delivered ' to the base ' He'd had a 250 before that )

My attempt at deliverance had it requireing the throttle closeing when near vertical ( and riseing :? :shock: ) the urgancy saw it still a few foot up when acceleration was reingauged . A situation that persisted through second . 8.000 is about 75 knots in tooth gear . Seemed to require a few seconds disengaugement to secure the front adhesion for a imediate left . The culprits being well aft from a glance rearward then . A few times on that Ive
HAD to let it drop on the shift to third in lieu of takeing a undulateing bend aviateing the front . Possible , but not keen on scratching the paint ,
particularly the paint on the Helmet , on the road .Again , the thing WAS the Daily transport .

During the several years that I owned an Atlas, which I upgraded & tuned, apart from going over a Humpback bridge, I only once obtained a mini wheelie, just after I fitted the SS cam , after finding the Dunstall cam I had installed was a piece of junk.

It doesn't threaten to rip the bars from your hands and flip over like the Maico 490 does, it just lifts the front wheel a few inches or so off the pavement when under full throttle in first gear.
Installed the Bob Newby Racing clutch and belt drive yesterday, and sure enough it holds, the little wheelie is back.
Doesn't lift in second though, maybe I imagined that, probably rode the Maico on the same day

Glen

Glen - I hope you will post some photos of your SS in due course.

I'm surprised that the other SS owners on the forum have not chimed in yet

Probably a difficult question but how many were produced?

I always thought the factory styling was gentlemanly and understated. This is the pic in the Wiki entry. I would not like to see every 650SS customised but the styling here is a bit more in keeping with its deserved sporting reputation. Norton could have done a better job - they got the styling right with the Commando.

Dave, I like the styling of the 650ss just as it is, wouldnt change a thing. It's pared down look reminds me of the BSA Goldstar in that there is no adornment, just what is needed to make it go. To my way of thinking, the BSA Goldstar is the best looking British Road Bike of all time, 650SS is second, then the Triumph 650 Bonneville and the Norton Commando. The Manx is tops for race bikes.
I should add that the cafe'd bikes as in your post also have that great minimalist look. The nice thing about the 650SS is that it was pretty much a cafe racer right out of the box.

here are some photos of the bike

http://s402.photobucket.com/pbwidget.sw ... c9333b.pbw


Glen

Very nice! Now that I see them, I think you posted them before, but some time ago.

Spot the genuine factory part(s) ??

daveh said:

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The 99 had farefully ripping styleing , for its day. AND they did a 99 SS . Though of course the 650 SS instigates the 750 crankshaft .,\\



as for schoolboys tales of abuse & unreliability ;



Thanks to Carrick Watson for this picture of himself on his Dominator 600 in 1957.

Carrick says “This was a great bike, I used it when in the Army doing my National Service with REME Airborne attached to the Parachute School at RAF Abingdon

It was my transport to get home for a weekend leave. – depart Abingdon Friday night 5 pm and get Home to Glasgow around 12 pm, trip of 400 miles. This was before the days of Motorways so it was a hard run for any bike, Summer and Winter. Return trip – leave Glasgow around 10pm and do an overnight back to Abingdon for morning Parade

Very reliable bike, I fitted a set of Vincent bars to give me a better riding position for this distance, the fairing made a huge difference in wet weather. I used to wear Divers underwear I bought from an Army & Navy store with lots of layers, and my Barbour suit on top, that is why I am looking a bit plump !!

Did more road miles on this bike than any other I ever had, and have great memories of it, the handling generally was above average for any machine of this period top speed was only around 100 mph but at that time not much on the road could stay with it over a long distance”