Temperature gauges.

Surely it depends also in large part on your cruising speed... or how hardthe engine is working....you will find it less distracting to glance at a gauges than thinking about aboutwhat might be happening..
If you are racing and out on a ragged edge then feed back is useful , even if only to set a bike up

NOBODY worried about this stuff back in the day when we seriously rode these bikes; why worry about it now?

I rode my 750 Commando as a daily rider to/from work in the hottest summer months in Tennessee/Mississippi. Never had any indication that there was a problem with temperature (or oil pressure). Nowadays, my 850 operates in the Mexican high desert at high altitudes/high temps and, again, exhibits absolutely no issues with doing so.

Frankly, installing such gauges on these bikes is just asking for something to worry about when it is unnecessary.

Why invent non-existent problems to solve?

MexicoMike said:

NOBODY worried about this stuff back in the day when we seriously rode these bikes; why worry about it now?

I rode my 750 Commando as a daily rider to/from work in the hottest summer months in Tennessee/Mississippi. Never had any indication that there was a problem with temperature (or oil pressure). Nowadays, my 850 operates in the Mexican high desert at high altitudes/high temps and, again, exhibits absolutely no issues with doing so.

Frankly, installing such gauges on these bikes is just asking for something to worry about when it is unnecessary.

Why invent non-existent problems to solve?

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Backin the day as you put it most had not appreciated that the commando engine can be fragile...And yes I did have gauges fitted but mine use toget used really hard... nowadays probably not essential .the fibre glass fastback tankhas gone (covid) and it runs much cooler with the superior air circulation.. And following carstrike when cycling have had to take fairing off -which I suppose would not help cooling in stationary trafficBut themainthing is i Ino longer cruise at 90plus mph.. too many electronic spies, and I ightuse the oilcoolernow once or twice a year!!!!

MexicoMike said:

NOBODY worried about this stuff back in the day when we seriously rode these bikes; why worry about it now?

I rode my 750 Commando as a daily rider to/from work in the hottest summer months in Tennessee/Mississippi. Never had any indication that there was a problem with temperature (or oil pressure). Nowadays, my 850 operates in the Mexican high desert at high altitudes/high temps and, again, exhibits absolutely no issues with doing so.

Frankly, installing such gauges on these bikes is just asking for something to worry about when it is unnecessary.

Why invent non-existent problems to solve?

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I don't think you are reading what I have said. I do have a problem....burnt legs.

Your comment is fine for a road bike and I would agree with it in that context.

Actually the bike did burn my legs occasionally back in the '70s, just the oil in the frame as I used a low-level exhaust. But it was rare, mainly due to as mentioned the typically shorter races in held in English summers. It certainly wasn't an issue at Cadwell Park in Easter snow....

Onder said:

Somewhat puzzled that people think you will spend your time staring at the instruments rather than watching your riding. ................ Once more with conviction: "Ignorance is not bliss".

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I have always found time to check my tacho whilst racing, even as a guide to gear changing! No one thinks that odd, do they?

I have no doubt I will have the time to glance at temp gauges maybe once a lap, probably on the straight bits when relaxed, but not a lot more, and of course at initial start up and when sitting in a holding area with no airflow and the bike running, which may in the end be the biggest concern!

Of course all of this instrument reading is helped by careful positioning of instruments, and the ease of an analog gauge when max rpm is straight up! (Look hard and you will be able to read my tacho from the photo)

Little digits on an LCD are much harder, but again, mostly you are only looking for anomalies, like one much hotter than the other! These gauges are popular on enduro bikes (they even make them in KTM orange!) where a whole lot of things (mud and lack of airflow) can cause issues. On an Enduro, whilst avoiding trees and stuff, time to monitor the gauge must be very limited but riders still seem to thnk it worthwhile.

Just a moment of frustration here, initially I asked if anyone had experience of these gauges, it is good to ask others who may have useful input. The answer it seems is mainly no, so why is it I am getting lectured?

Hi all,
Regarding Steve A, I hope you aren’t being lectured to. A temp gauge on a race bike is probably an exceptionally good ideas. You are correct in as much of the value of a gauge is largely irrelevant, it is the anomaly that is important. One’s eyes soon get trained to notice an aberrant gauge at a glance without having to notice the actual value.
I do agree that in the normal range of riding conditions a correctly tuned Norton in good condition shouldn’t have over heating issues even in quite extreme conditions.
I guess when you think about it, as a Commando is still a very fast bike, unless on the autobahn or the track, it is hard to continuously run one at very high power settings in comparison with a very small commuter bike that could potentially be run at wide open throttle indefinitely. I wouldn’t continuously ride my bike over 80 mph for numerous reasons, not least my own comfort, above those speeds there is an awful lot of unbalanced weight thrashing around inside the cases, irrespective of it’s temperature.
I dont think I would like to ride a Norton (or any other vintage performance bike) in very heavy city traffic, I suspect that would impose more thermal load on the engine than normal fast open road riding.
Presumably oils are far better these days at tolerating high temperatures compared to what we ran half a century ago.
Finally, anybody who owns a Commando now and belongs to this forum is probably far more sympathetic towards their treasured bike than an 18 year old iwho bought it in 1970 and only had two speeds, flat out and stop.
In other words, with any degree of sensible treatment, excessive heating shouldn’t be a problem. In fact I’m sure the majority of us have an innate and sympathetic understanding of the temperature of our bike by the heat between our legs, the smell of the bike and it’s sound.
Perhaps water cooled engines are better candidates for a temperature gauge as a coolant leak or pump failure may not be noticed in time to prevent damage.
Regards
Al

I am with you on how we run and care for our bikes now. But even with filtering you can still get caught in traffic lots of roads are
just one lane even in town. At some point you end up at the front of the line but there is still that red light. Shutting off and restarting a hot Commando may not be so easy.
It isnt 1970 anymore and traffic is much heavier and we are usually the only ones out on 45+ year vehicles.

SteveA said:

Just a moment of frustration here, initially I asked if anyone had experience of these gauges, it is good to ask others who may have useful input. The answer it seems is mainly no, so why is it I am getting lectured?

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Because, as usual we're way off the original post; and, a few days ago you were dead set against oil pressure lights or gauges Sorry, just had to - don't take offense - none intended!

A hot engine will exacerbate detonation. Higher octane, retarded ignition, and cooler plugs will help (with performance offsets for timing).

I have wondered if an oil cooler would be a worthwhile mod. Only way to really tell is monitor temps

marshg246 said:

Because, as usual we're way off the original post; and, a few days ago you were dead set against oil pressure lights or gauges Sorry, just had to - don't take offense - none intended!

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No, I won't get upset, In fact I had realised I would be open to that observation when I posted.

But I will say I do see a difference between the two things.

One of my objections to pressure related indicators is that they might affect the integrity of the oil system. The other is that a Commando oil system naturally drops pressure, because as illustrated by Ludwig, it is dependent on oil flow rather than actual pressure.

A temperature gauge with a sender under the spark plug doesn't affect the integrity of, well, anything really.

And to be honest I am trying to resolve a problem, it could be that if I resolve that problem the gauges would be taken off, if they really are a distraction. But right now I have excess heat and want to find ways to address that. It isn't something you can fix at a dyno either because you need the typical airflow of riding.

The other point is that there is a whole of discussion here on pressure gauges, anti-wet sump valves etc, that go around, but no one seems to have much experience of temperature gauges, it isn't discussed much, so I asked.

TomU said:

A hot engine will exacerbate detonation. Higher octane, retarded ignition, and cooler plugs will help (with performance offsets for timing).

I have wondered if an oil cooler would be a worthwhile mod. Only way to really tell is monitor temps

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A Rickman frame is an oil cooler. The problem is that it radiates heat close to where you sit on it!. My photos also indicate I have an exhaust close to me as well!

I am sure it all ran cooler years ago when we didn't have to have oil containment in the fairing and ran 19" wheels, a lot more air flowed around the cases, barrels and frame tubes.

I am using Tetra Boost in 98 Octane and IW27 Denso plugs. I cannot easily get Avgas here or I would use that. The ignition is retarded from the typical 31 degrees, possibly too far, I am going to return to 31 and use a richer carb setting, and maybe a bit more TetraBoost, and take more care mixing it in.

My other 4 stroke race bike has an oil cooler...and a high-level exhaust, uses the same plug, and the oil tank is in the seat hump. I have never had the same level of heat from it unless I am careless around the exhaust when waiting to roll.

I did use to race an early GSXR750F Slabside, also colloquially known as an 'oil boiler', because it pumped oil for cooling rather than water.

If I had a cylinder head temp gage, it's a fair bet, I would have had some warning on this.

Just pick a cheap covid temp checking handheld thermometer, must be plenty about. Put in pocket and check temps when you stop, they will be a little higher but unless shockingly high you can assume the temp will be lower when underway.
Personally, if it smells hot, it most probably is. I ran from Passau into Austria which is constantly up hill, 39 C, and it was hot when I stopped for fuel, but when at home and the oil changed it didn't look cooked.

Madnorton said:

Just pick a cheap covid temp checking handheld thermometer, must be plenty about. Put in pocket and check temps when you stop, they will be a little higher but unless shockingly high you can assume the temp will be lower when underway.
Personally, if it smells hot, it most probably is. I ran from Passau into Austria which is constantly up hill, 39 C, and it was hot when I stopped for fuel, but when at home and the oil changed it didn't look cooked.

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As above, really interested to see what happens with airflow!

I have one of those temp guages......Never got any useful information from it, but, worth another try on frame rails to confirm oil temp. (Actually picked it up the other day, and it didn't work!)

I have a poor sense of smell, it fails to differentiate between warm, hot, very hot and f***ing hot!

SteveA said:

As above, really interested to see what happens with airflow!

I have one of those temp guages......Never got any useful information from it, but, worth another try on frame rails to confirm oil temp. (Actually picked it up the other day, and it didn't work!)

I have a poor sense of smell, it fails to differentiate between warm, hot, very hot and f***ing hot!

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Simple test, hot and above burns your nose.

SteveA said:

I have a poor sense of smell, it fails to differentiate between warm, hot, very hot and f***ing hot!

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This has nothing to do with racing, a Rickman frame, you burning your legs, fairings, etc.; but, it does have to do with (like you said) temps not being discussed much here:

I like the idea of a checking engine temp and I will start using an infrared thermometer on return from some rides. The reason is that last summer my stepson and grandson went for a 50 mile ride in the Washington, DC area on a stock 850 Roadster MK2A but with a K&N air filter. When they came back the engine was GD hot. Didn't notice smell but did see the heat waves and even though the engine was extremely clean and did not leak oil there was a little smoke (looked like light steam) coming from the top end. It was around 90F and high humidity that day and their total weight was about 375 pounds and it had a full tank of E10. It was a Saturday so the traffic was not terrible but still a lot of stop and go and I doubt that they got over 50mph.

It appears that no damage was done. It would be nice to have a gauge at least long enough to know what the normal and too hot temps are; or, to check the temp at stop lights with a thermometer just to know what's normal.

Maybe I should get one of these?
One for temp, oil pressure, oil temp, charging rate, how about a layshaft bearing warning, sumping indicator, water content in E10.... Would need an 850 to lug all the sensors around.

Edit: Was bored. it's wet and windy, can't get out to play, as planned!

Mart UK said:

Maybe I should get one of these?
One for temp, oil pressure, oil temp, charging rate, how about a layshaft bearing warning, sumping indicator, water content in E10.... Would need an 850 to lug all the sensors around.

Edit: Was bored. it's wet and windy, can't get out to play, as planned!

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Don't forget the anti collision warning sensor, 'cos by the time you've read through that lot you'll be a lot further down the road...

"Just a moment of frustration here, initially I asked if anyone had experience of these gauges, it is good to ask others who may have useful input. The answer it seems is mainly no, so why is it I am getting lectured?"

You are right and, being one of the respondents who questioned the need for gauges, I apologize. It's funny in that I made that response even though one of my pet peeves is such responses when they don't address the question.

marshg246 said:

This has nothing to do with racing, a Rickman frame, you burning your legs, fairings, etc.; but, it does have to do with (like you said) temps not being discussed much here:

I like the idea of a checking engine temp and I will start using an infrared thermometer on return from some rides. The reason is that last summer my stepson and grandson went for a 50 mile ride in the Washington, DC area on a stock 850 Roadster MK2A but with a K&N air filter. When they came back the engine was GD hot. Didn't notice smell but did see the heat waves and even though the engine was extremely clean and did not leak oil there was a little smoke (looked like light steam) coming from the top end. It was around 90F and high humidity that day and their total weight was about 375 pounds and it had a full tank of E10. It was a Saturday so the traffic was not terrible but still a lot of stop and go and I doubt that they got over 50mph.

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Mart UK said:

Maybe I should get one of these?
One for temp, oil pressure, oil temp, charging rate, how about a layshaft bearing warning, sumping indicator, water content in E10.... Would need an 850 to lug all the sensors around.

Edit: Was bored. it's wet and windy, can't get out to play, as planned!

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I'm using your excuse for staying off subject, and I hope my 79 Bonneville customer doesn't log on and see this - I always have to fix the mess he makes adding gadgets and you've given him more ideas .

Oil pressure light is standard on Triumphs and no wet sumping or layshaft problems, but he has added:

Voltage gauge, Oil pressure gauge, Head temp gauge for each cylinder, LoJack, a battery charge monitor that talks to his phone, solar trickle charger connector, USP port, phone holder, heated grips, auto cancelling turn signals, dual oversized floating disks with the calipers and master cylinder to match (stoppies are possible - scared the crap out of me - used to Norton front brakes). And, he uses any old wire he can find, taps into silly places and then complains when things don't work. I finally rewired his bike. Now he's looking for O2 sensors for the exhaust pipes along with a display that shows both pipes.