Starting date for 850 Production

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My Seeley has a Mk2A Commando 850 engine. If that motor was first manufactured in 1972, the bike can be raced in Historic Period 4, against CB750s and 750 commandos. If its is only permitted to run in Period 5, the competition is TZ350 Yamaha, H1 and Z1 Kawasaki, and a lot of superbikes. I don't have the logbook required for racing these days, and I will never apply for one as the rules stand. I will only ever use the bike for track practice days. Historic racing in Australia is bullshit, it is tied up with rules invented by people who would no know. - MOST FRUSTRATING ! If anyone can prove the commando was made before the end of 1972, I would love to know about it.
 
ZFD said:
Les,
seems pretty chronological. They were built in batches and, say, batch 1190B ##s 303880- 303896 were built 4-6-73 and 5-6-73, but numerically come between ##s 303877 (batch 1173, produced 16-5-73) and 303897 (again batch 1173, produced 10-5-73). So, strictly speaking, they are about right, but not one number left the track accurately after the previous one.

#302007 has a note "Andover" against it, was off track on 28-3-73, but has no details on "passed test/packed/despatched/destination". How it got labelled as Dec.72 I have no idea- it wasn't even built then!

Unfortunately, the book ends at 305540, with some late 750 thrown in (some 221.000s and some 230.000s). The comes a gap with some numbers in obscure notes until the Mk3 which, I think, I have complete. No, I cannot veryfy 850Mk2As as JPNs! I have no 850Mk2 info.

Joe
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Ok, you got me thinking I had misread something so I dug out my log book and the plate off the bike. The V5 states the bike was first registered 26/04/73 850cc motorcycle. (I had thought it was January, my mistake). That probably puts it in line with your records?
Only other thing I could add is that the Crankcases are 302007, the gearbox is 302007, and the number of the frame on top left of tank mount bracket is 064140.
Heres the plate removed by PO decades ago:

Starting date for 850 Production
 
If I really exerte d myself I could ge t a Period 4 log book for racing my 850 based bike, however I would have to lie a bout the capacity and hope that the controlling body did not spot the barrels in a photo. Or I could use Steve Maney aluminium barrels and make it 1000cc capacity,. That is how silly our rules are .
 
Useful possibly, but would not constitute an official factory record. I guess anyone could punch a blank plate?
 
Old Bloke said:
Useful possibly, but would not constitute an official factory record. I guess anyone could punch a blank plate?
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Very true.
as far as I'm aware, 'most' 750s didn't have a unique identifier stamped into the frame, just the VIN plate.
I walked away from one I 'won' on ebay last year - no VIN plate and a hand-engraved engine number which bore no resemblance to anything else I've ever seen on a Norton, or on the V5!
The V5 stated '71 (I think), but it was evidently built up from later parts - including a steel tank.
When the seller told me 'VIN plates are only a fiver, you know' I thanked him for wasting my time, and left.

I believe that 850s have a 'proper' 'F' prefix number stamped on the headstock and repeated on the tank mount bracket. This isn't the VIN though.
At some point a date stamp was introduced on the gusset behind the LH 'Z' plate, but I don't recall seeing one on a pre-'71. I've a couple of '72 frames which also have the 'F' prefix, e.g. 'F 4 72'

Is it safe to assume these are Italian-built?
 
B+Bogus said:
I believe that 850s have a 'proper' 'F' prefix number stamped on the headstock
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Only from mid-'73 on.

B+Bogus said:
and repeated on the tank mount bracket.
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The number on the L/H tank mounting bracket is the frame part number.

B+Bogus said:
At some point a date stamp was introduced on the gusset behind the LH 'Z' plate, but I don't recall seeing one on a pre-'71. I've a couple of '72 frames which also have the 'F' prefix, e.g. 'F 4 72'
Is it safe to assume these are Italian-built?
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It's never safe to assume anything as far as Commandos are concerned.
 
I have 301174, date stamped 3/73. The papers for the bike says it's a 1972 850. I bought the bike in 1990, and did'nt know enough at the time to look at the plate on the headstock. Also did not know that 850's were not built until 1973. I've asked around about the papers saying 1972, and was told it was probably a typo from new when it was first registered.
 
And probably the stamp on my old plate is a mistake too. If you look at the "DEC 72", the string of characters slopes down left to right, but all the chars are orientated correctly with each other. Suggests that it was a single stamp with DEC 72 setup on it. Maybe the guy that did mine just picked up the wrong stamp, or maybe there were batches of plates with the date stamps already on, and he got the wrong plate. One things certain, we'll never know. :roll:
 
Also the corners are cut off where the rivets would go. That's a little suspicious. Many of the fastening hole got mashed up and deform during removal. Not many people understand how those how those little screw rivets work till you try to remove them.
 
I'd rather assumed that those 'Gross Vehicle Weight' plates were specific to the Mk3 850 - I've never owned an earlier 850. Were they fitted to all the Wolverhampton bikes ?
 
If somebody could prove conclusively the 850 was made and sold before the end of 1972, I would be very happy.
 
Definitely not sold until early 1973.
And only announced in early 1973 too.

If you read back through this thread, this sequence has already been explained.
Don't be misled by one suspect VIN plate either...
 
L.A.B. said:
79x100 said:
I'd rather assumed that those 'Gross Vehicle Weight' plates were specific to the Mk3 850 - I've never owned an earlier 850. Were they fitted to all the Wolverhampton bikes ?
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The 063247 plate is correct for the '72-'73 period according to the parts books.

http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/SICerti ... Labels.htm
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Bugger ! I've faked the wrong plate on my Mk3 then ! :roll: The original plate had been blasted and powder coated so I had no idea what the original anodising showed and in pre-internet days, there was no easy way of checking.

The earlier weights are probably OK though since I took a hacksaw to the electric start.
 
ZFD said:
seems pretty chronological. They were built in batches and, say, batch 1190B ##s 303880- 303896 were built 4-6-73 and 5-6-73, but numerically come between ##s 303877 (batch 1173, produced 16-5-73) and 303897 (again batch 1173, produced 10-5-73). So, strictly speaking, they are about right, but not one number left the track accurately after the previous one.
Click to expand...

I can add 300077 to the confusion of which you gave me the details a few years ago: The VIN plate is obviously a 06-3247 items and shows a manufacturing date of 06/73 - BTW interestingly the numbers are in the opposite direction of the serial number. The man date fits the dispatch date of 26-06-1973. Makes me wonder when the manufacturing date was actually stamped onto the VIN plate.

I kinda like this mystery aspect of the Commando era, maybe the guys responsible for issuing the VINs simply had a very special sense of humor and wanted this to be an occupational therapy for future Commando enthusiast. :mrgreen:


Tim
 
pvisseriii said:
Also the corners are cut off where the rivets would go. That's a little suspicious. Many of the fastening hole got mashed up and deform during removal. Not many people understand how those how those little screw rivets work till you try to remove them.
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Well not so suspicious really, the PO (who I knew), couldn't be bothered to remove the rivets properly and simply chiselled the plate off before repainting the frame. It was never refitted. I've had it glued onto the headstock in the past for the yearly MOT, otherwise it lives on the garage shelf. :D
 
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