When did Mk2 850 production stop

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possm

possm

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Hello all, a friend has just acquired a very late project 850 Mk2 or Mk2A, it is showing aprox 9500 miles but in rough condition, has matching engine gearbox and frame plate numbers 320XXX, no airbox but a K&N filter, the frame has several brackets similar to my current Mk3 [ I have previously owned a Mk2 & Mk2A so am familiar with them] which neither of my previous bikes had, the seat base is Mk3 without the hinge but a professional looking bracket attached to where the hinge would mount, the battery sits across the battery tray like my Mk3 but does not have a dzus fitting [mk2A] so is this that late that most of the chassis parts are Mk3? the fork yokes have the holes for the mk3 type brake pipes but the swingarm does not have the cotter pin setup and a drum brake rear wheel, can anybody shed some light on what my friend has?
 
possm said:
Hello all, a friend has just acquired a very late project 850 Mk2 or Mk2A, it is showing aprox 9500 miles but in rough condition, has matching engine gearbox and frame plate numbers 320XXX, no airbox but a K&N filter, the frame has several brackets similar to my current Mk3 [ I have previously owned a Mk2 & Mk2A so am familiar with them] which neither of my previous bikes had, the seat base is Mk3 without the hinge but a professional looking bracket attached to where the hinge would mount, the battery sits across the battery tray like my Mk3 but does not have a dzus fitting [mk2A] so is this that late that most of the chassis parts are Mk3? the fork yokes have the holes for the mk3 type brake pipes but the swingarm does not have the cotter pin setup and a drum brake rear wheel, can anybody shed some light on what my friend has?
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a bitsa?
 
Interesting question. What is the F number on the frame ?

I recently read somewhere (on here?) that someone had a Mk 2 frame with the Mk111 type seat bracket so thats possibly OK. The battery box detail is another question.

Not sure I have ever seen a 321*** number so that frame must be very close to the end. My 319*** was built 26 August 1974 and a Mk2a andover record for 31965* built 27 sept 74
 
Hi John, the F number would only be applicable if it is an Italian made frame and i did not see an F number though there was a very new looking vin plate, the battery tray looks the same as my Mk3 one. Is your bike a Mk2 or Mk2A? and which direction is your battery?
 
Hi Dave I suspect its a replacement- 1974, I thought it may have been 10-74 but it definitely looks like a 9.
How the shoulder hopefully all healed? and welcome back to lockdown- NOT!
 
possm said:
Hi John, the F number would only be applicable if it is an Italian made frame and i did not see an F number though there was a very new looking vin plate, the battery tray looks the same as my Mk3 one. Is your bike a Mk2 or Mk2A? and which direction is your battery?
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Mines a Mk11 with the along the bike battery orientation.

Not everyone agrees an F number must mean an Italian frame. Mine has an F number and has imperial sized tubing.
 
I have had a bit of a search around. My bike 3192** is near the end of Mk11 and Mk11A so I have collected a bit of relevant data.

A good site to check is https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

If I look at Andover records I have seen myself I get my bike 3192** built 26 August 74 and a Mk11A 3196** built 27 Sept 74.

The numbers are only 420 apart and built a month apart but other data I have seen suggests they were building about 700 to 1100 a month in 1974. They probably had their annual holiday shut-down about august sept which might explain the smaller no.

Greg Marsh has 320691 built in August 74 but that seems wrong to me. I have seen Norton records for the 3196** bike built 27 sept.

Greg Marsh list a Mk111 326168 built Dec 74. That's already over 1100 bikes into the Mk 111 numbers. About a months build of bikes.

So my best guess is the last Mk11s were built in mid to late Oct 74. And Mk111 starting in Oct or Nov 74.

I'd be interested in any hard data to help this as I'm estimating this. Are there any Mk 11s out there with a 321*** number. ?
 
possm said:
Hello all, a friend has just acquired a very late project 850 Mk2 or Mk2A, it is showing aprox 9500 miles but in rough condition, has matching engine gearbox and frame plate numbers 320XXX, no airbox but a K&N filter, the frame has several brackets similar to my current Mk3 [ I have previously owned a Mk2 & Mk2A so am familiar with them] which neither of my previous bikes had, the seat base is Mk3 without the hinge but a professional looking bracket attached to where the hinge would mount, the battery sits across the battery tray like my Mk3 but does not have a dzus fitting [mk2A] so is this that late that most of the chassis parts are Mk3?
Click to expand...

It's almost certainly a Mk2A.
Many late Mk2 and Mk2A had 'Mk3' frames.
The 'across the frame' battery tray with no Dzus bracket is Mk2A Mk3 unless the bracket has been cut off as the side cover couldn't be fastened without the Mk3 bracket attached to the plastic airbox and a modified side cover.

possm said:
the fork yokes have the holes for the mk3 type brake pipes but the swingarm does not have the cotter pin setup and a drum brake rear wheel,
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I assume you mean the lower yoke as the Mk3 lower yoke has the hole for the brake pipe fitting in addition to the steering damper hole?
The Mk3 upper yoke has no brake pipe hole and can be identified by the two Mk3 console mounting lugs.

The later Mk2/2A models had the sealed 'welch plugs and felts' swinging arm pivot but did not have the cotter pin cradle (although one is available).

We know from the AN records that 850 Mk3 production began mid-November 1974 so Mk2/Mk2A production should have ended at about that time although I believe a few Mk2As could have been built in early 1975 or had 1975 date stamps, the accuracy of which cannot always be relied upon.
 
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possm said:
Hi Dave I suspect its a replacement- 1974, I thought it may have been 10-74 but it definitely looks like a 9.
How the shoulder hopefully all healed? and welcome back to lockdown- NOT!
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As I said in another thread, Shitty. Go to physio and get acupuncture every week. Exercises just about every day. Progress has stalled about 75% range of motion. Was scheduled for cortisone shot but Level 4 has intervened. Haven't ridden since the rally, and have pretty much constant lo-med grade pain. Still can't sleep on that side. Not happy.
 
L.A.B. said:
I believe Mk2A (possibly Mk2) production continued into 324000.


"320XXX"

AN should have records for 320000+
andover-norton.co.uk

Factory Records

andover-norton.co.uk
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Interesting. That would be 3000 plus more bikes. Or close to 3 months of production after late September 74. A lot more than I would have thought. Especially if they were building the Mk111 in November.
 
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johnm said:
Interesting. That would be 3000 more bikes. Or close to 3 months of production after September 74. A lot more than I would have thought.
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Yes, we don't see many of these very late serial number Mk2As (I think Mk2 production might have ended) so it's possible not all the serial numbers were used unless there is another explanation.
 
L.A.B. said:
Yes, we don't see many of these very late serial number Mk2As (I think Mk2 production might have ended) so it's possible not all the serial numbers were used unless there is another explanation.
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That must be it. It's hard to see they would have had enough capacity otherwise. I'd be interested to see a red plate for a Mk 11 or 11A that late. For a long time I thought mine was one of the last Mk 11s but I have now seen the records for bikes about 1000 numbers latter.
 
johnm said:
I have had a bit of a search around. My bike 3192** is near the end of Mk11 and Mk11A so I have collected a bit of relevant data.

A good site to check is https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

If I look at Andover records I have seen myself I get my bike 3192** built 26 August 74 and a Mk11A 3196** built 27 Sept 74.

The numbers are only 420 apart and built a month apart but other data I have seen suggests they were building about 700 to 1100 a month in 1974. They probably had their annual holiday shut-down about august sept which might explain the smaller no.

Greg Marsh has 320691 built in August 74 but that seems wrong to me. I have seen Norton records for the 3196** bike built 27 sept.

Greg Marsh list a Mk111 326168 built Dec 74. That's already over 1100 bikes into the Mk 111 numbers. About a months build of bikes.

So my best guess is the last Mk11s were built in mid to late Oct 74. And Mk111 starting in Oct or Nov 74.

This is an estimate on my part so please correct where wrong.

Are there any Mk11s out there with a 321*** number
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The Date on 320691 was read directly from what I believe to be the original Certification Label. In my survey page I list all the data from the AN dispatch record for 320691 which includes the frame number (stamped into the headstock) so I know the frame and engine left the factory together. This bike and a few others are why I believe that at least in 74, the Certification Label was stamped and on the frame before they started building the bike. It came off the assembly line (Date off track) Oct 23, 1974 and was shipped (despatched) Nov 26, 1974. If oyu keep looking you've find higher serial numbers shipped earlier according to the factor records.

"Built" is a hard thing to track down and I believe that Norton changed the way they did things a few times between 71 and 75. Also, it appears that some bikes failed testing and were eventually finished later.

The more people who provide info, the better our understanding can be: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx
 
I have 320671. It has the larger battery running crosswise in the frame, Dzus fastener on left cover and Mark III style bushings in swing arm. It was all original until I got hit by red light runner. I am now restoring it and finding out things about it as I go. Because of the swing arm style I was able to upgrade to the cradle with cotter pins. It also has the VIN stamped in the steering head and was registered in California as a 1975.
 
Just to add to the serial number game ; My 75 MKIII frame tag 12/74 325951
 
For those interested in a minor mystery, see 320691, 320768, and 320769 in my survey. All "Off Track" within one day but that's about all that's in order. Also, those are the highest pre-MKIII bikes I have listed. The tracker here has 320935 owned by quikbrew. If it's still around it would be nice to get more info as it's the highest I've seen with any documentation for a pre-MKIII.
 
gortnipper said:
As I said in another thread, Shitty. Go to physio and get acupuncture every week. Exercises just about every day. Progress has stalled about 75% range of motion. Was scheduled for cortisone shot but Level 4 has intervened. Haven't ridden since the rally, and have pretty much constant lo-med grade pain. Still can't sleep on that side. Not happy.
Click to expand...
Off topic, but needs to be said. I had two frozen shoulders, was looking at surgery. Went to a Kiwi girl physio in Scotland. She persuaded me to try acupuncture, I was very sceptical. I looked like a pin cushion, she used some pretty big needles, took about 3 months, cured! Good luck with it.
 
A better way to know which frame you have is by factory part number. Keep in mind even if the number does not match what you think you have it doesn’t mean anything as Norton used whatever was at hand when assembling Commandos.
from the NOC website


Submitted by John Holmes on Sat, 17/04/2021

Part numbers for the frame…​

Part numbers for the frame are stamped on the front face of the LH fuel tank bracket next to headstock.
The early 850 frame part number is 064140 Later pre-Mk3 frame is 065404 Mk3 frame is 065632.
 
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