Sprintex?

Hobot is talking about something like the Gator Supercharger that Dick Datson developed. His books provided detailed info on how to take the compressor side of a turbocharger and build a simple housing with bearings and a pulley to drive it from the crankshaft, kind of a do-it-yourself Paxton or Drouin or whatever. Pretty interesting. I think the books are not as available not that Dick has been sick. More info here

http://www.gatorsuperchargers.net/photos/photos.htm

and more on book availability here

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Car ... =310120749

Ken

Would the compact gearsets used in starter motor applications be of value in keeping dimensional/packaging matters feasible-or would torque/drive issue then get dicey?

Thanks I think Ken for pointing out this non-EFI boost forum. Btw the low boost of 5-6 PSI is worth like 1/3rd more torque. The fastest motorcycle dragster I've seen was displayed at Barbers and it ran on old school fuel sprayers that just kicked in one set after another till full fuel dump rpm. For set up idle he had a piece of tape over a manifold hole, once staged he'd pull off the tape to get 4000ish rpm that loaded the torque converter while brake on before launch. The low down torque of even low boost would be a responsive hoot in public for zings up over the ton, then the pure horsepower by rpm comes into play against the wind around 120.

Here's a discussion on converting half a turbo into wholesome supercharger.

http://www.driftworks.com/forum/technic ... arger.html

Ken,

Ah thanks for that. I mis-read the tech stuff. So the total output for this unit is 2 bar; Ambient + 1 bar. Makes a lot more sense that.

Thanks also for the links! Interesting reading!! One of the several books I bought was this one;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Supercharged-In ... 813&sr=8-3

Just out of interest Steve...Where'd you get the 116 octane fuel from? Is that using an octane booster? The highest stuff we get over here (that I can find), is 95.

I agree with what you say, it'd be fool hardy to try to stuff 10 PSI in such an old engine. In all honesty I was thinking of dropping the CR down to 7:5:1 and upping the PSI to a max
of about +4 above ambient. So I guess that'd be running that charger at idle? I dunno maybe I'm thinking about this all upside down and back to front.

I've already been told of a guy who makes piston specials over here...Only downside is a MOQ of 8.

I've also been wondering if the Maney barrels would take the extra pressure? Thoughts?

Oh...And speaking of barrels...todays happy event...Got a set of barrels back from refurb, the courier has managed to break the fronts off the camfollower tunnels. AFAIK they're now scrap. :cry:

Cheers,

S

Peel has a special mission to try to embarrass the moderns especially in handling turns then into opens up to some ridiculous speed - maybe 160 or so - but she is special expensive long suffering project to take hi CR+boost- so can't recommend her path for anyone else. The most famous car for going the hi CR+boost route in the Mercedes Kompressor engines, but there's examples of private build engines that are essentially romping stomping hi CR hot rods w/o boost right off the line into mid range where the breathing begins to suffer but boost is building so just spikes the torque power further instead of leveling off or dropping.

If I was you - on un-tamed isolastics, [ie: sans the all important and vital to me rear rump link plus the rather more minor top and breast links], i'd lower CR into the upper 7's, lower 8's and boost to max of 10 PSI range no worries but keeping hi octane like 100 to 112-ish in tank or just use educated throttle hand until enough octane to play hard on. Octane boosters with pump gas should work ok in a low CR-10PSI boost. There are calculators that go into how much boosted CR you reach and how much octane needed to keep full ignition timing for maxium torque-heating power. 7 CR + 10PSI and good cam should pack in mixture to maybe 13-14 effective CR, so 100 octane likely adequate with full spark advance, which might mean retarding some as the flame burns faster in boosted CR. In big cities they usually have a station that sell 112 octane and the garden tractor guys buy it in 55 gal drums it you are as serious as them. Peel can reach 116 octane by water injection of 15% on top of fuel. She should run ok on low boost 5-6 lb with just 87 octane no h2o, for normal cruising around with the PowerArc programmable ignition with 4 curves on tap by manual or sensor switching.

Maney barrels are best thing going for boost as their Al construction dumps heat better and heat is the main bugga-boo on air cooled boosted applications. Short blasts no issue but holding on to hi boost could bring bad juju. I'm going to add ducting similar to Sir Eddies but likely in clear lexan not to hide engine. Peel is also Black Body Emission coated outside for a bit more cooling, but for really heated long events I will have to spray water on head outside too. Oil cooling jets with extra pump will switch in when boost top 7ish PSI as will the h2o injection. Tom Drouin said his blower ok to 11 CR but then cautions against cams more aggressive than standard. Yet our 'Ddodges Damages' John Magyar says in his risk taking youth ran his Drouin on 11+ CR pistons and race level cam w/o any issues just extra kick ass power. Don't know the octane he feed it back in hi test ethyl lead days.

My P!! and my Peel both could spin street tire if nailing it while leaning some like tipping over some to swing out of lane to pass a line of cars, so must develop good sense of throttle vs traction when bumping torque power up. My P!! would eat Ms Peel up in her prime before she could even get out of 1st and then zoom over 140 no problemo but to hold on to the horrific vibration. I never topped on on P!! as got too scared OK even as a wild 21 yr old. Peel could not spin tire in straight lines but on 1st two shifts but the P!! could too easy even in 4th up to 60-70's and so should your low CR low boost set up. You may have to get used to wheelie control too as my P!! was lowered 2" in front but Peel wasn't and injured me on a wheelie tire fold up so beware of what you want as an ex-mate told me.

Hegel said:

Oh...And speaking of barrels...todays happy event...Got a set of barrels back from refurb, the courier has managed to break the fronts off the camfollower tunnels. AFAIK they're now scrap. :cry:

Cheers,

S

Click to expand...

Don't know who might do it in Old Blighty, but here in the colonies there are shops that bore out the worn lifter tunnels and fit them with bronze sleeeves. Might work for you.

Back when I was importing and selling alloy cylinders from Drew Robertson, I had several deliveries arrive with lifter tunnels broken at the front, as if they had been dropped. Turned out to be the customs inspectors, who had unpacked them to inspect, and then just dumped them all back in the package without wrapping the packing. On most of them the broken area was quite small, and I was able to salvage them by machining the broken area off, but a couple were damaged enough that they required sleeving. I didn't think I should try selling them, so I used them on my own race bikes, and they worked fine.

Ken

hobot said:

Yet our 'Ddodges Damages' John Magyar says in his risk taking youth ran his Drouin on 11+ CR pistons and race level cam w/o any issues just extra kick ass power. Don't know the octane he feed it back in hi test ethyl lead days.

Click to expand...

The 'bot-hoe' mis stated. I ran 10.25:1 Omega pistons with highest pump gas octane handy. Nothing too special. Cam was a mild street performance cam - nothing at all radical although I don't have the particulars. Detonation was a non issue. I vaguely recall running heat range 9's for the plugs. Plugs alway remain clean and upon tear down the combustion chamber and piston crowns were spotless.

Aluminum barrels with high boost is certainly an unknown. Not sure the alloy would stand up as well as the cast iron.

Hmm, may have to hunt email down where I was mis-led by DWS Drouin risking.
Heat is the buggo-boo on blowing up a Norton, so Al steel sleeved race level barrel is best way to go, as long as fastened by through bolts not just studs in Al threads. The compression pressure ani't going to blow the cylinders up but sure could lift the head off the barrel so sealing will definitely be an issue on Ms Peel. I was not teasing about cabling whole thing to the cradle and front mounts.

If'n I was to build a maxed out boosted Norton, not limited to the wimpy Drouin I'd go methanol fuel turbocharger on top of oil jets.

These guys have helped Peel project along twice now. Clunker Harley here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-rZIssEBuk


http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmwturbos.htm

Don't Confuse Boost with Airflow!

We've been at this over 20 years and eveyone wants to talk about boost when it comes to turbos. We are engine people and we know it takes more or less160 cfm per 100 hp so we pay attention to the pumping of the air, not the "boost". If your stock K1200RS has 130 hp at the crank it makes no sense to put on a turbo that can't move that much air at low pressure ratios to feed the engine. People confuse boost with airflow. If you have a small turbo you're going to have to run a higher pressure ratio to get the same airflow as a larger unit...and you're going to have to go to more restrictive (smaller A/R) housing to move this air sooner. The result of this will be excessive backpressure and "crossover" where the exhaust pressure excedes the inlet pressure. We use turbos to increase torque where you need it, at the lower rpms without having to run much "boost". There is virtually no need for you to run more than 5 to 8 psi for 99% of whatever you use the bike for. Oh sure, we know you have to turn it up to see what it will do and find out what 250hp feels like...that's what the water injection is for. Even at those power levels the system is blindingly efficient. Just remember, we have engineered a system that at 8 psi moves 200 hp worth of air into your motor. Leave the wastegate set at 5 psi and turn it up when the need arises...or leave it set at 8 psi and simply short shift and let the additional torque do it's job. By 8 psi the turbo delivers 80% of the airflow it delivers at 15 psi! If you don't think turbos are torque monsters you haven't seen the Audi R8 Le Mans prototypes.

Click to expand...

If we knew the ballpark of fuel mass burnt per horsepower in Nortons then calculators would be more useful but fun to bench race.

Boost Required for "X" Horsepower Calculator

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcboost.html

obviously the guy cant afford a decent house , after paying for all that lot . :?

Matt Spencer said:

obviously the guy cant afford a decent house , after paying for all that lot . :?

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At least he has his priorities right!

Ken

hobot said:

Hmm, may have to hunt email down where I was mis-led by DWS Drouin risking.

Click to expand...

Well bot-hoe, if I misled you, my apologies but I think your hunting for the email where you were misled is akin to chasing down that bucket of steam. :lol:

And I am still waiting for you to bring me that left handed muffler bearing.

hobot said:

Thanks I think Ken for pointing out this non-EFI boost forum. Btw the low boost of 5-6 PSI is worth like 1/3rd more torque. The fastest motorcycle dragster I've seen was displayed at Barbers and it ran on old school fuel sprayers that just kicked in one set after another till full fuel dump rpm. For set up idle he had a piece of tape over a manifold hole, once staged he'd pull off the tape to get 4000ish rpm that loaded the torque converter while brake on before launch. The low down torque of even low boost would be a responsive hoot in public for zings up over the ton, then the pure horsepower by rpm comes into play against the wind around 120.

Here's a discussion on converting half a turbo into wholesome supercharger.

http://www.driftworks.com/forum/technic ... arger.html

Click to expand...

That's quite interesting eh. It wouldn't give as much boost as it did in it's exhaust driven form but any PSI is positive, otherwise it is vacuum

Maybe a bit off topic but I have a centrifugal blower on my 5 litre V8 and in my opinion it isn't right for my car and my purposes. It makes peak performance at 5000rpm so the top end is magic. It kicks in when you get past 100km/h and doesn't stop til the speedo needle has nowhere to go. That kind of behaviour would see me sharing a cell with someone called bubba, and me being his bitch. The cheapest effective alternative is an Eaton rootes type blower which I beleive is a positive displacement blower. It emulates having more cubes from down low so for me it would be more usable power.

There is a guy over here in Western Australia that set a car up with a Vortech (centrifugal) blower feeding an Eaton (rootes) blower with good results.

http://www.marksworkshop.com.au/Pages/feature/reg.htm

This well known truck has blowers and turbos paired together:

http://www.bandagbullet.com/

One thing I have learned from owning a car with a retro fitted supercharger is that it tests the limits of the stock components, even at mild boost like mine runs.

Simple maintenance becomes a little more difficult. Whining v belts are the bane of my cars existence and to convert to serpentine belts will mean machining new pulleys. To convert to gilmers will mean loads of noise and more pulleys and spacers needing making. The transmission has been rebuilt due to it breaking 3rd or 4th gear, the blower has been rebuilt coz it spat an internal belt, etc etc etc.

Oh... and the 5.7 litre chev based engine that the later cars have, or the 6 litre, or whatever the new ones are can dust my old steel blocked engine from the factory.

I say I'd turbo or supercharge a Norton... not MY Norton. The project Norton maybe... but I think it would need to be period correct(ish). Just like with my old (17 year old) car, I can't pretend it is ever gonna be the quickest, and I know that some tool that has just bought a newer car or bike will be able to have more horses without having to turn a spanner or spend half as much as me.

I do like the idea of dusting twin cam Harleys with an old Norton though

Educational review of centrifugal blower on a car application. i think I've designed Peel so just the cubes of 920 will over power tire at low rpm in low gears then blower fills in from there. i have run with deadly serious angry squids and discussed tests ahead of time with vacationing racers, so don't consider below 5000 rpm as useful but for sight seeing. Anywho even mild boost is a hoot and i think a clever mid boost unit for Norton might have a place for dozens and dozens of riders and those that come after them. What I seek is one to one throttle position to tire spin rpm w/o delay or regard to bike speed up to maybe the ton or so. Turbos like constant exhaust flow more than separated pulses but RBRacering turbo's Harleys so why not someone try it on a Commando? I know all motorcylers are not power freaks but so many are.

hobot said:

Educational review of centrifugal blower on a car application. i think I've designed Peel so just the cubes of 920 will over power tire at low rpm in low gears then blower fills in from there. i have run with deadly serious angry squids and discussed tests ahead of time with vacationing racers, so don't consider below 5000 rpm as useful but for sight seeing. Anywho even mild boost is a hoot and i think a clever mid boost unit for Norton might have a place for dozens and dozens of riders and those that come after them. What I seek is one to one throttle position to tire spin rpm w/o delay or regard to bike speed up to maybe the ton or so. Turbos like constant exhaust flow more than separated pulses but RBRacering turbo's Harleys so why not someone try it on a Commando? I know all motorcylers are not power freaks but so many are.

Click to expand...

Ummm wow.... I didn't know you had a big cube Commando. In your application a centrifugal blower might be fine

Don't get me wrong.. even when my cars/bikes have excessive power I still want more

I like your style hobot. Have you got any vids of your bike running?

Past Peel was prior to cheap and easy video so no action there and next version build to take blower power. I've had major home and car expenses this year so Peel project is on hold but all major stuff done or processed so mainly a few engine details then plumb her together but can't give full power till TT tranny saved up for. I've worn out my factory Combat drive train now so that stifled trying the Drouin on it to learn stuff while taking care not to blow up or wipe on on un-tamed isolastics. I don't ever want to grow up but getting old so best get a move on.

OK I'll bite. What's the go with the name Peel? Banana peel?

No worries at all mate. Whenever you get it done I'll be keen to see the outcome

Peel is short for Ms Peel, as a slur to the new age mating titles and not to be confused with Mrs. Emma Peel of Avengers TV show which was a play on words of M-appeal, a UK term for masculine appeal aka sex appeal. But peel out fits as well because all my wheels seem to too easy slip out of traction so yes banana peel can be throw in there too w/o offense. Anyone can put a blower on and use it in straight lines, Ms Peel specialty that most appeals to me is spiking boost in leaning conditions. But a big mystery remains as about everyone that's used a Drouin stated it messes with the nice handling somehow. If so then theres a big huge Colossal advantage of a counter rotating compressor if it don't have gyroscopic interferences a fan wheel does. I also leave such wild reports on her handling its like a fictional TV icon cutie pie. See if any sense in these images.
http://s184.beta.photobucket.com/user/hoboter/library/

OZzie, that truck turbo & blower combination is a bit misleading since the mill is a 2-stroke Detroit which runs the GM blower as a primary scavenge element for normal functioning [uniflow diesel- air pumped in through sleeve ports, exhaust by 4 valve heads].
In higher output/high altitude configurations the turbos use the exhaust pulses to add their otherwise wasted energy.
Maritimo the Aussie offshore boat racers used those big Detroits too, quite a contrast to the big Lamborghini V12 petrol mills they also run.

hobot said:

Peel is short for Ms Peel, as a slur to the new age mating titles and not to be confused with Mrs. Emma Peel of Avengers TV show which was a play on words of M-appeal, a UK term for masculine appeal aka sex appeal. But peel out fits as well because all my wheels seem to too easy slip out of traction so yes banana peel can be throw in there too w/o offense. Anyone can put a blower on and use it in straight lines, Ms Peel specialty that most appeals to me is spiking boost in leaning conditions. But a big mystery remains as about everyone that's used a Drouin stated it messes with the nice handling somehow. If so then theres a big huge Colossal advantage of a counter rotating compressor if it don't have gyroscopic interferences a fan wheel does. I also leave such wild reports on her handling its like a fictional TV icon cutie pie. See if any sense in these images.
http://s184.beta.photobucket.com/user/hoboter/library/

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FWOAR! That gallery has some cool pics. Your bike(s) are unreal. Aftermarket engineering everywhere. The blower resembles a Paxton eh.

Peel out was what I was thinking... Sex 'peel works too I guess

Thanks for the info and pics. Tis good to see the fruits of somebody elses skill, knowledge, labour, and dosh.