Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)

Mostly,.. If I was sent poorly made replica parts, I would be royally screwed because I generally assume that the manufacturer has to know more than I do to produce the part. I would tend to think that I mistakenly ordered the wrong part somehow. It would take me a while to start thinking that maybe my new part that came in a "genuine norton parts" bag with the correct part number on it, was an ill fitting replica part.

....And there I would be, with my entire bike in million pieces, with the wrong new parts to reassemble it... I would be really pissed off, and rightfully so... especially because my ill fitting replica parts came in some "genuine" parts packaging.

madass140 said:

did all the offending parts came in genuine Norton packaging ? or were they just sold as new Norton parts without Norton packaging etc ?

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All in bags, with the AN card. See the image above for the trans repair bags/cards. Detail of bearing, mainshaft, gears.

swooshdave said:

If this had happened to me I sure would have treated it differently. I would have contacted the dealer and AN and explained the situation. I would have also posted here, not to gloat at how great I was at finding issues but rather to inform my fellow owners of the potential problems.

I'm glad there is an Andover, most of us know what it's like trying to find parts for other makes and it's not pretty. It will be a sad day if they ever go away and the hobby will suffer for it. Maybe the aren't perfect but it sure beats the alternative. Don't you forget that.

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Dave, Had I brought the parts back to the little three man shop that got the shaft for me, He'd lose even more money, be frustrated and use time he doesn't have playing the return game. And then the guy he got them from. I made the decision to not do that out of respect for his time/money. Also, like the game where you tell the person beside you something, and so on... it would end up like "the shaft radius didn't fit the bearing spline... what?" I deal with this type of communication daily, and I know where/how to save steps/breath/keystrokes/effort/heartburn when communicating.


" not to gloat at how great I was at finding issues but rather to inform my fellow owners of the potential problems."
Mindblowing. You are so far behind the curve here, you can't see the ball. :roll: No "gloat". I'd rather have good, usable parts. I only began digging when the shit would not FIT TOGETHER. Hate me if you want because I have skills in this area, but you're waaay out of the arena. I only commented on the PARTS that are bad, and even then I focused on the FEATURES of the parts (of which there are dozens to each part, and I did not inspect all of them) that are so horribly bad, they make the part unsuable. I did not insult the person selling them, his Mother, Wife or kids. :idea: Instead I focused on the ISSUE AT HAND. :wink: The purpose was to make aware interested parties. Nothing more. Your postings show you are determined to try and turn this into a personal conflict, which it is not. Kinda like todays media really..... :mrgreen: Stop trying to defend when a defense isn't required. This is simple nuts and bolts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfmVBmDKLZI

I too, am glad to have every part available for these vintage bikes. How you can take that and somehow suggest that highlighting a quality escape = I wish the company to be gone is absurd.

ZFD said:

All I can say- now that the issue has been exhaustively ventilated with differing views: if there is an issue with a part supplied by Andover Norton, directly or indirectly through a dealer, we would like to hear about it directly and will do our damnest to rectify the situation. As, I believe, everybody who has made contact with our office in recent years will testify.

As for the "RS" gear, that was made by "Racing Spares" (now L.F.Harris) in the UK in the 1970s/80s for W.E.Wassell/Burntwood, no doubt down to a price. I still have a box full of these from a dealer's inventory I will not sell. They are non-functional junk tending towards dangerous. I am amazed they are still in circulation, three decades on!

The mainshaft is from Hungerford and there is a fair chance it came from the "Elephant's Grave" cache of original ex-Norton/Wolverhampton parts we bought as a job lot in those days. So much for industrial archeology... So much, too, for the myth NOS was better than the parts produced today. It does not look like our current manufacture and I can but apologize it slipped through the patchy quality control at the time. We will be happy to replace it f.o.c.

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton

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It appears I made the right choice by not using the two 2nd gears, largely based on the AN website info. Good on you for having that info available.

The industrial archeology has many pitfalls, as I'm sure you're aware. SOOOOO many times in manufacturing, bad parts are culled out, set aside, nobody makes a disposition call, they languish under the bench, and many times, a person unknowingly finds and puts them in the stream. Seen it a lot.

Wow! Clearly you are upset, and deservedly so. But, what is it that you want? To be on the BOD of AN?
As a consumer you can return the part for a correct one at no charge (yes I know all about that hassle),
you can vehemently complain (you have done so), and/or you can exercise the ultimate consumer right,
and that is to take your business elsewhere. I absolutely do not believe AN wants to sell poorly made or
incorrect parts. That would be commercial suicide. How can they address quality control if the offending
part is not returned to them for analysis? The discussion is valid but the vitriol is misplaced. Remember
that we are speaking of a motorcycle, and an old one at that. Even the space shuttle Challenger failed
due to a lack of engineering quality control. The issue was then fixed.

But, perhaps my perception of vitriol has to do with the simple functioning of my mind. If so, I am
sorry for airing a perception that casts another in a bad light. Perhaps not, though. Will go in for Alzheimer's testing tomorrow.

lazyeye6 said:

Wow! Clearly you are upset, and deservedly so. But, what is it that you want? To be on the BOD of AN?
As a consumer you can return the part for a correct one at no charge (yes I know all about that hassle),
you can vehemently complain (you have done so), and/or you can exercise the ultimate consumer right,
and that is to take your business elsewhere. I absolutely do not believe AN wants to sell poorly made or
incorrect parts. That would be commercial suicide. How can they address quality control if the offending
part is not returned to them for analysis? The discussion is valid but the vitriol is misplaced. Remember
that we are speaking of a motorcycle, and an old one at that. Even the space shuttle Challenger failed
due to a lack of engineering quality control. The issue was then fixed.

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Thanks for the insight. :mrgreen: However fundamental.

Ask Christa McAuliffe's family how they feel about Morton-Thiokol's parts. Wait, it isn't relevant to this discussion... I never claimed a safety issue. At all.

"The vitriol misplaced...." be more specific.... fascinating, no doubt.


As for your BOD sarcasm, no interest. I am grateful when someone let's me know of a problem. My usual first response is: "Let's find out all about this. This is serious." and launch a fact finding effort, most times enlisting the help of the person bringing it to light. Works great. :idea:

lazyeye6 said:

Wow! Clearly you are upset, and deservedly so. But, what is it that you want? To be on the BOD of AN?
As a consumer you can return the part for a correct one at no charge (yes I know all about that hassle),
you can vehemently complain (you have done so), and/or you can exercise the ultimate consumer right,
and that is to take your business elsewhere. I absolutely do not believe AN wants to sell poorly made or
incorrect parts. That would be commercial suicide. How can they address quality control if the offending
part is not returned to them for analysis? The discussion is valid but the vitriol is misplaced. Remember
that we are speaking of a motorcycle, and an old one at that. Even the space shuttle Challenger failed
due to a lack of engineering quality control. The issue was then fixed.

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Finally someone with some sense.

Those of you who complain excessively deserve to suffer the rest of your lives with pattern parts. I'll take my chances with AN.

Mistakes happen to everyone, it's how you fix them is what should determine how you are seen. AN has clearly offered to make this right, despite the bleating.

Probably why I could never run a retail business, some of you would go in the FOAD file.

When you pay full price for genuine parts, that is what you ought to get. Obviously that includes OEM specs with full quality control.

I want our precious vendors to succeed. I also want them to care about their reputations. We all, in our personal and professional lives, have to maintain our reputations through the quality of our work. People talk. No different here.

A simple private return transaction might not have got the attention of Mr. Seifert with the consequence that similar parts might unknowingly have been sold. That's not good for anyone.

Personally I find it rather sad that people feel the need to post this sort of thing on forums rather than complain directly to the person responsible, fair enough if they give you the finger but give them the chance to put things right first, this benefits nobody. I have no connection with AN and have never met Joe Seiffert but I have been to his premises in Andover once a few months ago and and was impressed with what I saw and the enthusiasm of the staff.
Isn't the internet a wonderful thing. :roll:

xbacksideslider said:

A simple private return transaction might not have got the attention of Mr. Seifert with the consequence that similar parts might unknowingly have been sold. That's not good for anyone.

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That is highly unlikely.

A simple private return transaction might not have got the attention of Mr. Seifert with the consequence that similar parts might unknowingly have been sold.

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Firstly, you'd be surprised were you to know how much gets my attention. I get copies of mails sent to our office. I get mails sent directly to me by retail customers and dealers. Plus everybody has the opportunity to send me pms through this forum. And many have done.

Secondly, whoever feels like telling me to my face what he thinks of me, or Andover Norton, or both, will have ample opportunity at our Open Day we plan for autumn this year.

I feel sorry for the moderate and rational members of this forum who became targets for abuse by people who, apparently, have never made a mistake in their lives.

As for that mainshaft: I also deal in Triumph spares in my German shop and recently had an issue with 5-speed gearbox mainshafts 57-7077. I had one returned by a customer who complained the clutch hub taper would not fit the taper on the shaft. He was right. I sent his plus all my stock back to the supplier telling him in advance what problem he had with that batch so he could check and, if necessary, quarantine his stock. I got credited for them and got them replaced as soon as suitable ones were available. Why this should be an unneccessary hardship for me as a retailer- after all I make money from retailing the goods, so it is part of my job, innit?- I do not know.

It also potentially stopped al further deliveries of faulty items, which is another benefit of informing the manufacturer or distributor.

As I said in my first post on this thread a customer drew my attention to it. Had he not done it, I might not have read about Concours' problem. May I therefore ask people who have problems to turn to us immediately instead of posting something somewhere on the net, be it here or elsewhere. I simply cannot read every forum every day- it'd not get my work done.
Thank you.
Joe Seifert/Andover Norton

Any sort of problem with a purchase should be referred to the seller first, to give them a chance to rectify the issue. Taking a part that has some sort of defect or incomplete machining and attempting to modify or correct the matter oneself and then smearing it all over the internet when it doesn't work out is two carts in front of a horse.

This thread speaks more about the character of the original poster than the company supplying the parts.

One of them at least has the decency to correct the situation than whine about it.

If you think the AN parts are too expensive wait until you see how much it costs to get the cheaper parts to fit right. I'm sure those vendors stand behind the quality of their stuff... :roll:

ZFD said:

As for that mainshaft: I also deal in Triumph spares in my German shop and recently had an issue with 5-speed gearbox mainshafts 57-7077. I had one returned by a customer who complained the clutch hub taper would not fit the taper on the shaft. He was right.

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I returned a 57-7077 for my t140 last year to petersclassicbikes in Holland. might have been the same batch. Or you might even be referring to the shaft i returned if it came from him. Same story as concours, but i did not need to go on a trip on my t140 that weekend. So i told Peter the item was out of tolerance, he told me to send it back. Within a week my new (perfect) shaft was delivered and nobody was frustrated. I even read today i might have contributed to some sort of quality control within our hobby. Feels good!
Really, i am happy to find these parts new and affordable for 30+ year old bikes. If sometimes a part is wrong, so be it...

Of the thousands of euro's i spent directly at AN, i literally had 2 items i had a complaint about. 2 crush washers for the banjo bolt in the brembo master cylinder kit had the wrong diameter. I gave AN feedback about it, put the washers on the shelf and took 2 of the right size . No harm done, and possibly the next buyer of the kit (if he does not have the right size on the shelf and needs to go on a trip) gets the right size.
For the rest... Only top service! I went once to andover, where Phil A. came to the warehouse on a saturday, especially for me. And every question (or chat) with Phil, Simon or Joe (you probably don't remember me, i bought an engine from you once) is answered with passion for the business.

Just re-read concours original thread. I don't see him guilty of any sort vile attempt to totally discredit N.A. What I do see is alliances being formed and the anti being upped with each back and forth opposing post. Kind of like road rage. Jeeze people!

Biscuit said:

Just re-read concours original thread. I don't see him guilty of any sort vile attempt to totally discredit N.A. What I do see is alliances being formed and the anti being upped with each back and forth opposing post. Kind of like road rage. Jeeze people!

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I question your comprehension skills. :mrgreen:

concours said:

Had I not been leaving on a trip, I would have sent the shaft STRAIT BACK to AN. Machine shop dumpster material.

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concours said:

Oh well, it must be good, U.K. made bearing, sold by AN at three times what a common commercial bearing goes for, it MUST be ok"
WRONG.

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concours said:

The quality is dismal. Whoever (NOT a machinist) made that mainshaft, inspected and packaged it, should have it jammed up their nostril so they never lose sight of their work.

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Just a sample. The wording is clearly not a compliment. I completely understand the frustration but parts are sometimes not right throughout the auto and motorcycle world. And elsewhere. It happens. But the complaining should stop when the supplier offers to make it right.

Forums are useful tools to inform, tell fellow enthusiasts about your experiences, did the part fit? If not, did you get the right part? How was the customer service? Only if you receive an unsatisfactory response should you resort to ranting. But give the dealer a chance first.

Well, despite the public airing and the views on it, the parts WERE crap, and the WERE from AN stock.

ZFD said:

All I can say- now that the issue has been exhaustively ventilated with differing views: if there is an issue with a part supplied by Andover Norton, directly or indirectly through a dealer, we would like to hear about it directly and will do our damnest to rectify the situation. As, I believe, everybody who has made contact with our office in recent years will testify.

As for the "RS" gear, that was made by "Racing Spares" (now L.F.Harris) in the UK in the 1970s/80s for W.E.Wassell/Burntwood, no doubt down to a price. I still have a box full of these from a dealer's inventory I will not sell. They are non-functional junk tending towards dangerous. I am amazed they are still in circulation, three decades on!

The mainshaft is from Hungerford and there is a fair chance it came from the "Elephant's Grave" cache of original ex-Norton/Wolverhampton parts we bought as a job lot in those days. So much for industrial archeology... So much, too, for the myth NOS was better than the parts produced today. It does not look like our current manufacture and I can but apologize it slipped through the patchy quality control at the time. We will be happy to replace it f.o.c.

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton

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[Note to self to check the address on AN parts cards...]

To me, Concours and Joe havent been too out of line, and it seems like the forum is as much responsible for the inflammation as any one particular person, as the nature of these things seem to be.

Maybe it is time to shut this one down?

Hi Joe/ZFD,
Re your:
"...We have introduced a quality control system after I took the company over, against considerable internal resistence from old hands. As every manufacturer can confirm there is always the odd mistake slipping through. But we try..."

From the earlier photos, I see that the Green Dot cards do not have 'batch' or 'date' codes for the parts the bags contain (just part numbers).
My question is: How can you control defective parts without traceability criteria?
Ta.

Note: For the sake of transparency, my background is quality assurance engineering.

swooshdave said:

Biscuit said:

Just re-read concours original thread. I don't see him guilty of any sort vile attempt to totally discredit N.A. What I do see is alliances being formed and the anti being upped with each back and forth opposing post. Kind of like road rage. Jeeze people!

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I question your comprehension skills. :mrgreen:

concours said:

Had I not been leaving on a trip, I would have sent the shaft STRAIT BACK to AN. Machine shop dumpster material.

Click to expand...

concours said:

Oh well, it must be good, U.K. made bearing, sold by AN at three times what a common commercial bearing goes for, it MUST be ok"
WRONG.

Click to expand...

concours said:

The quality is dismal. Whoever (NOT a machinist) made that mainshaft, inspected and packaged it, should have it jammed up their nostril so they never lose sight of their work.

Click to expand...

Just a sample. The wording is clearly not a compliment. I completely understand the frustration but parts are sometimes not right throughout the auto and motorcycle world. And elsewhere. It happens. But the complaining should stop when the supplier offers to make it right.

Forums are useful tools to inform, tell fellow enthusiasts about your experiences, did the part fit? If not, did you get the right part? How was the customer service? Only if you receive an unsatisfactory response should you resort to ranting. But give the dealer a chance first.

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Yah, maybe you're right, I quit................... :roll:

But give the dealer a chance first.

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I don't know about that.
As someone who has also been involved in quality control, and past problems, (not motorcycles)
I'd say that things happen a lot better and faster when its made public first.

Dud parts get purged, FAST, BIGTIME.
Big sigh of relief all around.
No more banging heads against brick walls, and still nothing happens.....

No reflection on AN.
I've always found their parts excellent. (Based on not a big sample.)
Its great that near everything is available.