Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)

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I'm wondering why you didn't contact the dealers first about the discrepancies before smearing AN in the forum?

And you haven't responded to the comment about how the bearing should fit.
 
Concours has indeed meanwhile told me in a pm where the parts came from. Both sources- one indirect, one direct- sound legit and I'd vouch for both not to sell pirate parts.

That said our current mainshafts look very different to the one in the picture. I still wonder when the shaft was made and whether it was perhaps a real antique- NOS unearthed under the rubble of a collapsed wall in Wolverhampton....

Joe/Andover Norton
 
swooshdave said:
Peter R said:
AN must have sold you "export quality" material since you are too far away from them come over and grab them by their necks.
Problem is, that we are inclined to do whatever possible to make this crap fit, instead of throwing this stuff back to the supplier and tell tem that we do not wish to spend our hard earned money on this kind of garbage quality material.
Should we as Norton owners become used to spending many hours to make parts fit ? the answer unfortunately is Yes.
AN certainly has a lot of explaining to do here.
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These are the kinds of posts that will destroy the Norton hobby. We are very blessed with a supplier that is able to supply the best parts available for our old bikes and you want to get the pitchforks out? How about a nice civil discussion with a lot more details, like who exactly sold the parts to this customer...

Allow the vendors to comment and if needed, make things right.

How would you like it if everything you did was scrutinized with the same bias as your comment, right or wrong? I bet you'd like a chance to defend yourself.

So sit back and relax. We don't even have enough evidence to determine where the parts came from.
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Swooshdave,
My comment was by no means intended to "destroy" the Norton hobby, and it is reassuring that ZFD is totally honest in his reply.
The point I was trying to make is that there is a lot of crap around when it comes to replacement parts for classic vehicles. (bikes and cars alike)
I have restored and maintained several classic bikes and cars over the years, and found that the quality of replacement parts was often depressingly poor. I have bought a lot of replacement parts for my BSA Goldstar (a different beast indeed) that can only serve as expesive paperweights, or parts that took a lot of effort to make them fit, the same applies for the classic cars that I have restored, and these parts mostly came from reputable suppliers.
Maybe I am too picky, because I come from an aviation backgound, where high standards for material and workmanship are the norm, and the origin of parts is always traceable.
It has often been said that you will get what you pay for, but unfortunately this is not always the case, I have often spent my hard earned cash on inferior material.
I know from experience that AN is one of the better suppliers when it comes to Norton parts, and the material from the original poster possibly may have slipped through their nets, or is an old part from some obscure source.
Again, it was by no means my intention to destroy the Norton hobby, or anyone's reputation, I was just feeling sorry about the fact that another Commando owner had bought some inferior parts, and he has the right to feel pssd off. At least to me he seems to be a person with enough knowledge to recognise the faults, and take corrective action.
I can imagine that faulty parts in the hands of guys with little knowledge may lead to potentially dangerous situations.
I hope this clarifies my point, and sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in my initial comment.
 
ZFD said:
Our buyer Simon just drew my attention to the fact the invoice does not show a gearbox mainshaft., i.e. the critizised part. So where did that come from?
Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
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This should help with it's lineage:

Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)



In keeping with my "buy local when you have a choice, I sourced the parts here:
Just to clarify, the "C&C Machine" header is where I WAS when I faxed the parts list to my local vendor. (NOT retired yet :mrgreen: )

Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)



Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)




Going to ride now, more later :mrgreen: :P
 
swooshdave said:
I'm wondering why you didn't contact the dealers first about the discrepancies before smearing AN in the forum?

And you haven't responded to the comment about how the bearing should fit.
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NOT smearing Dave. Go back and read carefully. :roll: The PARTS found to be substandard were brutally criticized, :x NOTHING else. :mrgreen: NOT the entire AN organization, NOT the people who sell it. Images don't distort the facts.
I haven't commented because I've been busy WORKING, reading a little now and then. I will, in time address each remark. I stand by my statements. I chose those words carefully. :mrgreen:
Pull in your claws. :oops: :P
 
swooshdave said:
Why is it ok to call out AN and not the dealers by name?
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As someone who has spent the last 20 years in the auto parts business I can tell you why. We sell the same parts that most every other auto parts store does, it's hard not to when Federal Mogul owns most of the brand names out there. If I sell you a ball joint with the Moog brand name on it and it fails in a month who gets the bad rap, me or Moog?? Are you going to tell your friends that Moog is junk or that XYZ auto parts sells junk?? I hear this shit every day and it gets pretty old. Looks like Concours has put all the cards on the table so it doesn't matter at this point, but the selling dealer is not the manufacturer in most cases, and they have no control over what the manufacturer puts their brand name on.
 
mike
being from the auto repair side of things I have to agree with what you said, the resale'r is just that, NOT the manufacturer of what they sell therefor have NO control of the quality. but on another note I had an AN oil filter kit YEARS ago that came through without the hole drilled from the return line to the filter in the housing so it would blow the line off at the engine. what I did was let the vendor know to check his inventory for this issue and to pass it on to AN also.

MikeG said:
swooshdave said:
Why is it ok to call out AN and not the dealers by name?
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As someone who has spent the last 20 years in the auto parts business I can tell you why. We sell the same parts that most every other auto parts store does, it's hard not to when Federal Mogul owns most of the brand names out there. If I sell you a ball joint with the Moog brand name on it and it fails in a month who gets the bad rap, me or Moog?? Are you going to tell your friends that Moog is junk or that XYZ auto parts sells junk?? I hear this shit every day and it gets pretty old. Looks like Concours has put all the cards on the table so it doesn't matter at this point, but the selling dealer is not the manufacturer in most cases, and they have no control over what the manufacturer puts their brand name on.
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concours said:
swooshdave said:
Why is it ok to call out AN and not the dealers by name?
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I chose that because the dealers "pass through" sell the AN parts, may feel unfairly mentioned (names changed to protect the innocent). HOWEVER, since ZFD asked where they came from in the public forum, I will provide this info as requested.
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That seemed obvious to some of us. Additionally anybody who's bought Commando parts on the left coast would/should recognize that mystery invoice.
 
Snorton74 said:
concours said:
swooshdave said:
Why is it ok to call out AN and not the dealers by name?
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I chose that because the dealers "pass through" sell the AN parts, may feel unfairly mentioned (names changed to protect the innocent). HOWEVER, since ZFD asked where they came from in the public forum, I will provide this info as requested.
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That seemed obvious to some of us. Additionally anybody who's bought Commando parts on the left coast would/should recognize that mystery invoice.
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A great opportunity to give praise for the two vendors mentioned. "Dude" Wheeler at Gate City Cycle has been providing OUTSTANDING customer service for the 37 years I've been going there, and a long while prior to that. GREAT guy to do business with! :mrgreen:
Likewise, Fred & Ella at OldBritts provides hit-it-out-of-the-park service everytime I place an order. I live and die by the parts ordering and shipping of parts every day at work, so I have seen a LOT of different things go wrong and right over the years. BOTH of these vendors are masters in the field. :mrgreen:
 
So let's talk about the 2nd lay and 2nd main gears I chose to NOT INSTALL based on the info at the AN home page about identifying their genuine parts, etc. The hand vibro etched ID's on one of them were done after the heat treating, and were a red flag, didn't dare chance a failure. I ordered two new gears from another vendor.

IMG_8598_zpsbfgwnzea.jpg


IMG_8597_zpsuqk0h0en.jpg


IMG_8596_zps60uqurek.jpg


IMG_8595_zpsfuzkngiz.jpg


Here, still in the bag
IMG_8594_zpsgdiuzq1v.jpg

Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)
 
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The sprocket on the right is the genuine AN sprocket installed 23,000 miles ago, tumble/vibratory deburred, laser etched identification on it. The new AN sprocket on the left has no idents whatsoever, not even the steel stamped tooth count (industry standard). I hope it's of the same high quality I expected and got from the old one.
Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)
 
Frankie17 said:
the bearing looks to have the RHP branding on it RHP no longer produce the LJ31.7=1 1-1/4" id bearing ?????

so i can only assume AN are having the 1" ID RHP bearing ground internally to 1-1/4" id and making a balls of it !!!

And yes you can buy the doubled sealed 1-1/4" ID bearings factory ground TO THE RIGHT RADIUS from any brit motorcycle dealer / bearing specialist for £15.00
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I believe you nailed that one. The reground I.D. makes perfect sense.... :idea: wait, the part WON'T WORK, UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. :oops:
 
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ZFD said:
A customer drew my attention to this thread, so allow me to comment.

1. The bearing cannot be flush with the sleeve gear because the sleeve has a flat that stands proud from the teeth of the gear- see your 6th picture from the top where this shoulder can be clearly seen.
No matter what the radius is on the inner race of the bearing the shoulder will still stop against that flat and daylight will be seen.
I took a new sleeve gear out of my stock. The shoulder is at 90° to the shaft of the gear with no perceivable radius, so whether the sleeve gear bearing has a radius or not- and our current ones have- should make no difference when fitting the bearing to the sleeve gear. Our bearings are not ground by us, we buy them as they are.

You tried to fit that bearing to a used sleeve gear of unknown origin. The problem may come from the bearing- I doubt it, having personally rebuilt two gearboxes with our bearings for my own bikes in the last twelve months- or from the used sleeve gear.

Two trade customers of mine, both very experienced and competent, repair and restore one Norton after the other. If parts are lacking in quality I hear back from them very quickly. I have not heard from them about gearbox mainshafts or sleeve gear bearings for many years- indeed can't remember if we ever had problems with the mainshafts, before or during my now 8-year reign or before, and certainly never about sleeve gear bearings.

2. I next took a new mainshaft and second gear out of stock. I slid the gear on the mainshaft. No stoning by hand necessary, just slide on and off in whatever direction.... sorry! Our current mainshafts look nothing like the shaft your photo shows. What was the Andover Norton address on the package? Andover, Hungerford, or Southampton? I just wonder how old the shaft in question was.

3.
AN must have sold you "export quality" material since you are too far away from them come over and grab them by their necks.
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An old saga, and a practise I actually experienced with certain British "Norton Specialists" in years gone by. But not ours. We have introduced a quality control system after I took the company over, against considerable internal resistence from old hands. As every manufacturer can confirm there is always the odd mistake slipping through. But we try.

If you have quality problems with our parts, WE like to hear about them. It may be a real problem, say a manufacturing fault we did not recognize at the goods inward check. With quality issues more often than not the goods aren't ours but the customer thought they were ours because misleading imitations of our labels by the seller led him to that conclusion.

Rest asured my kids and I all ride Nortons on road and track and, therefore, want our parts to be right.

I also run a 50/50 retail and wholesale shop in Germany, so get feedback on our parts every day from amateurs and professionals, and quite independently from our operation in Andover.

If you have problems with our parts, send me a pm or turn to our office in Andover, office@andover-norton.co.uk

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
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Item 1) You need to go back, review the image again.... there is clearance for the outer race, as designed by virtue of the shoulder on the sleeve gear. LOOK CLOSER at my image (iPhone cam is amazing) and you'll see a gap between the INNER RACE and the sleeve gear shoulder... therin lyes the problem. The dykem clearly shows the contact on the bearing radius, NOT where any bearing should EVER contact. You are wrong on this item 1.
Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)

Item Throwing up a smokescreen about my "used" sleeve gear is just poor form. I know for fact is is the original 1974 factory gear, but, hey, I won't arm wrestle over your statement because it has no P/N or date code on it so therefore it's of "unknown origin". Oh, wait... so are your parts once removed from the package. I call BS on the insinuation the sleeve gear is not correct. Seeing how you have the engineering drawings for the parts, please state the radius specified on that feature of the sleeve gear. I'm here to talk factual features about the parts. Is it a 1/64" R shown on your drawing? I have radius gages and I'm not afraid to use 'em... :mrgreen:

Item 2) As for the mainshaft being a machine shop aberration, I knew I was making a deal with the devil by using it rather than returning it, my choice, 11th hour. Nobody with any machining knowledge at all can look at the one of six splines and putrid surface finish on the splines and think anything other than FAIL. The images don't lie.

Understand that this photo expose is intended to snap awake some people who have obviously dozed off with hard parts manufacture. If it was a simple part number mixup, or quantity boob up, it would be a non issue. These quality escapes (I'm being as kind as possible here) are objective FAILS in the parts business. :oops: I sought out and accepted ONLY genuine AN parts because I was convinced (largely by your website) the parts were of high quality. You can accept these images and improve the parts, or attempt to discredit everything surrounding them in the hopes of a smokescreen. I suggest the former. :idea:
 
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If this had happened to me I sure would have treated it differently. I would have contacted the dealer and AN and explained the situation. I would have also posted here, not to gloat at how great I was at finding issues but rather to inform my fellow owners of the potential problems.

I'm glad there is an Andover, most of us know what it's like trying to find parts for other makes and it's not pretty. It will be a sad day if they ever go away and the hobby will suffer for it. Maybe the aren't perfect but it sure beats the alternative. Don't you forget that.
 
swooshdave said:
If this had happened to me I sure would have treated it differently. I would have contacted the dealer and AN and explained the situation. I would have also posted here, not to gloat at how great I was at finding issues but rather to inform my fellow owners of the potential problems.

I'm glad there is an Andover, most of us know what it's like trying to find parts for other makes and it's not pretty. It will be a sad day if they ever go away and the hobby will suffer for it. Maybe the aren't perfect but it sure beats the alternative. Don't you forget that.
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Rubbish. Concours has every right to be outraged! He/she paid top dollar to not risk inferior product being provided and yet the manufacturer (allegedly) failed to supply parts 'fit for purpose'. My expectation is 'top dollar' = 'top product' (not 'top dollar' = 'other parts').

Andover's website states:
"Since moving from Shenstone in 1991 the company has continued to produce parts in accordance with original factory drawings. Genuine parts are identified by the familiar 'Green Globe' symbol - recognised by Norton owners worldwide as the mark of quality assurance.
We are represented in most major markets of the world by a network of distributors and dealers whose names and addresses can be accessed by clicking here or within the quick links section. Those listed carry a good stock of Genuine Norton Factory Parts, and are also able to offer other parts and specialist services."

Underlining added for emphasis.
Source: http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... /index.php
 
All I can say- now that the issue has been exhaustively ventilated with differing views: if there is an issue with a part supplied by Andover Norton, directly or indirectly through a dealer, we would like to hear about it directly and will do our damnest to rectify the situation. As, I believe, everybody who has made contact with our office in recent years will testify.

As for the "RS" gear, that was made by "Racing Spares" (now L.F.Harris) in the UK in the 1970s/80s for W.E.Wassell/Burntwood, no doubt down to a price. I still have a box full of these from a dealer's inventory I will not sell. They are non-functional junk tending towards dangerous. I am amazed they are still in circulation, three decades on!

The mainshaft is from Hungerford and there is a fair chance it came from the "Elephant's Grave" cache of original ex-Norton/Wolverhampton parts we bought as a job lot in those days. So much for industrial archeology... So much, too, for the myth NOS was better than the parts produced today. It does not look like our current manufacture and I can but apologize it slipped through the patchy quality control at the time. We will be happy to replace it f.o.c.

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
 
We are represented in most major markets of the world by a network of distributors and dealers whose names and addresses can be accessed by clicking here or within the quick links section. Those listed carry a good stock of Genuine Norton Factory Parts, and are also able to offer other parts and specialist services."

Take a good look at the list it is very short and getting shorter , UK distributors Norman white / Mick hemmings ( did i read somewhere AN have purchased the mick hemmings operation ) so one gone
High prices and factory drawings does not guarantee quality better than other vendors in the market

The AN pirate parts thread highlights competitors so called inferior products not made to factory drawings bear in mind the RS gears were manufactured by LF Harris in the late 70`s early 80`s and most have long since disappeared

will AN post a blog highlighting their own mistakes in a word NO will they issue a product recall NO

Every Supplier makes mistakes, but to constantly attack your competitors cheap inferior parts YOU NEED TO GET IT RIGHT EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME OUCH !!!!!!!!!!
 
did all the offending parts came in genuine Norton packaging ? or were they just sold as new Norton parts without Norton packaging etc ?
 
needing said:
swooshdave said:
If this had happened to me I sure would have treated it differently. I would have contacted the dealer and AN and explained the situation. I would have also posted here, not to gloat at how great I was at finding issues but rather to inform my fellow owners of the potential problems.

I'm glad there is an Andover, most of us know what it's like trying to find parts for other makes and it's not pretty. It will be a sad day if they ever go away and the hobby will suffer for it. Maybe the aren't perfect but it sure beats the alternative. Don't you forget that.
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Rubbish. Concours has every right to be outraged! He/she paid top dollar to not risk inferior product being provided and yet the manufacturer (allegedly) failed to supply parts 'fit for purpose'. My expectation is 'top dollar' = 'top product' (not 'top dollar' = 'other parts').

Andover's website states:
"Since moving from Shenstone in 1991 the company has continued to produce parts in accordance with original factory drawings. Genuine parts are identified by the familiar 'Green Globe' symbol - recognised by Norton owners worldwide as the mark of quality assurance.
We are represented in most major markets of the world by a network of distributors and dealers whose names and addresses can be accessed by clicking here or within the quick links section. Those listed carry a good stock of Genuine Norton Factory Parts, and are also able to offer other parts and specialist services."

Underlining added for emphasis.
Source: http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... /index.php
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Agreed. You gotta wonder about the guy who defends the corporation against the enthusiast who is just questioning quality control. Like many of us Concours has spent plenty of cash on new Norton parts over the years. He's earned the right to voice his concerns. He also contributes to this forum! For the record, corporations are lucky to have consumers not the other way around.
 
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