Sir Eddy's Rocket

comnoz said:

Here is a section of recorded dyno runs from 2 days of annoying the neighbors. Basically unedited except where U-tube removed some audio because of the music rights. I think we did around 32 pulls.

Over the two days we experimented with cam timing, ignition timing, exhaust system lengths and diameters, jetting and air filters and different types of spark plug.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtlxesi_YDQ[/video]

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Can't watch the video because when I hit play it says "Please sign in to view this video".

WZ507 said:

comnoz said:

Here is a section of recorded dyno runs from 2 days of annoying the neighbors. Basically unedited except where U-tube removed some audio because of the music rights. I think we did around 32 pulls.

Over the two days we experimented with cam timing, ignition timing, exhaust system lengths and diameters, jetting and air filters and different types of spark plug.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtlxesi_YDQ[/video]

Click to expand...

Can't watch the video because when I hit play it says "Please sign in to view this video".

Click to expand...

It's fixed now. Youtube had an issue with some of the music playing on the shop stereo. Jim

Please don't think I'm not impressed by 51 HP! Wasn't stock on these 22? It's a great job!

DaveSmith said:

Please don't think I'm not impressed by 51 HP! Wasn't stock on these 22? It's a great job!

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Thanks,
I did have my sights set on breaking 50 horse, but I was hoping for more.....

Well, if we assume everything is linear, 51.9 hp for a 500 is equivalent to 78 hp in a 750. That's not too shabby for rear wheel hp. It really should be enough to set some new records in the 500 MPS-PG class. Current records at Bonneville are 116.874 mph with AMA and 126.595 mph with SCTA, and with your slick streamlined setup, I think you should be good for significantly more than that. El Mirage is a little tougher. They don't run the modified class, so you'd have to run in 500 APS-PG, where the current record is 129.817 mph. Still, I think you would have a real shot at that. Hope we get to find out this year. If we make it to Bonneville for the AMA meet, I still have that bottle of Colorado Whisky that I had for 2015, ready to celebrate in 2016.

Ken

I love your ambition, however 50bhp was the claim made for the Joe Craig Manx Nortons. I wonder what power a 4 valve Jawa Speedway motor turns out ? With these things the law of diminishing returns applies.

As I recall, the 50 hp for the Manx Norton was measured at the crankshaft. Paul's 51.9 hp is at the rear wheel. That's a significant difference. Hard to pin down the loss in the transmission process, as it varies between bike designs. Depending on whose numbers you believe for transmission losses, that 51.9 hp at the rear wheel is equivalent to 67.5 to 71.5 hp at the crank. Way more that the Manx Norton, and quite impressive.

Ken

Hi Paul & Jim great stuff, one Q, why such short headers?
Regards Mike

Great to see you are back at it, What are the dates you are looking at, (event?) Bub?

Brooking 850 said:

Hi Paul & Jim great stuff, one Q, why such short headers?
Regards Mike

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Because of the high rpm.

The diameter of the headpipe determines the RPM of the torque peak and the length of the headpipe determines the slope before and after the torque peak. We want the torque to stay high as long as possible which means short pipes. Jim

Thanks Jim, understand .
The reason I ask is we are struggling with a TR5 motor a friend races with, there is a huge flat spot/dip in the power /torque curve on the dyno with this motor.
We are using the so called correct length headers for a 2 into 1 , I extended them an extra three inches , it is better , although not totally resolved.
Regards Mike

lcrken said:

As I recall, the 50 hp for the Manx Norton was measured at the crankshaft. Paul's 51.9 hp is at the rear wheel. That's a significant difference. Hard to pin down the loss in the transmission process, as it varies between bike designs. Depending on whose numbers you believe for transmission losses, that 51.9 hp at the rear wheel is equivalent to 67.5 to 71.5 hp at the crank. Way more that the Manx Norton, and quite impressive.

Ken

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Ken
I would respectfully suggest that your crankshaft power estimates are too optimistic by some 10 bhp. However, the results achieved thus far are very promising, and bode well for further improvements to boost the current best rwhp up towards to 60 figure, which would certainly be something special to talk about.
60 rwhp would indicate cankshaft horsepower of 70 or better, and would certainly be on a par with anything coming from a modern Manx Norton, whether it be with 2 valves or 4.

Brooking 850 said:

Thanks Jim, understand .
The reason I ask is we are struggling with a TR5 motor a friend races with, there is a huge flat spot/dip in the power /torque curve on the dyno with this motor.
We are using the so called correct length headers for a 2 into 1 , I extended them an extra three inches , it is better , although not totally resolved.
Regards Mike

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With megaphones if I encounter a flat spot about 2000 rpm below peak power I would probably reduce the ID of the reverse cone to help fill in the hole. Jim

Snotzo said:

Ken
I would respectfully suggest that your crankshaft power estimates are too optimistic by some 10 bhp. However, the results achieved thus far are very promising, and bode well for further improvements to boost the current best rwhp up towards to 60 figure, which would certainly be something special to talk about.
60 rwhp would indicate cankshaft horsepower of 70 or better, and would certainly be on a par with anything coming from a modern Manx Norton, whether it be with 2 valves or 4.

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You are probably right. The issue here is not just rear wheel hp compared to crankshaft hp, but also inertia dynos vs brake dynos. I used the recipe from the Factorypro (manufacturer of EC997 eddy current dyno) web site

http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html

for converting rear wheel horsepower as measured on an inertia drum dyno (Dynojet, etc.) to crankshaft horsepower as measured on a true brake dyno. I used the two extremes from that recipe to provide a range. That was probably not the correct formula to use for values from Jim's dyno. As I recall, Jim has done a lot of work with his dyno to verify the accuracy of his measurements, and it's not fair to treat his numbers the same as those from a typical Dynojet facility. Jim could probably give us a much more accurate value for equivalent crankshaft horsepower than anything I could come up with. There's been so much argument over the years about how to compare measurements from an inertia type dyno to those from a traditional brake dyno, that I really don't know how to make an accurate comparison. A more common, and simpler conversion formula is to just assume 15% loss in the transmission system. That would make Paul's 51.9 rwhp equivalent to 61 hp at the crankshaft.

In hindsight, I should probably have been satisfied with just pointing out that comparing crankshaft horsepower (Manx) to rear wheel horsepower (comnoz dyno) was not correct.

Ken

lcrken said:

You are probably right. The issue here is not just rear wheel hp compared to crankshaft hp, but also inertia dynos vs brake dynos. I used the recipe from the Factorypro (manufacturer of EC997 eddy current dyno) web site

http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html

for converting rear wheel horsepower as measured on an inertia drum dyno (Dynojet, etc.) to crankshaft horsepower as measured on a true brake dyno. I used the two extremes from that recipe to provide a range. That was probably not the correct formula to use for values from Jim's dyno. As I recall, Jim has done a lot of work with his dyno to verify the accuracy of his measurements, and it's not fair to treat his numbers the same as those from a typical Dynojet facility. Jim could probably give us a much more accurate value for equivalent crankshaft horsepower than anything I could come up with. There's been so much argument over the years about how to compare measurements from an inertia type dyno to those from a traditional brake dyno, that I really don't know how to make an accurate comparison. A more common, and simpler conversion formula is to just assume 15% loss in the transmission system. That would make Paul's 51.9 rwhp equivalent to 61 hp at the crankshaft.

In hindsight, I should probably have been satisfied with just pointing out that comparing crankshaft horsepower (Manx) to rear wheel horsepower (comnoz dyno) was not correct.

Ken

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I have measured the driveline loss of a Norton in high gear with a primary belt drive. It was in the range of 12 to 13 % according to Superflows measuring system. I would not vouch for it's accuracy.

We were testing the 500 in second gear since it is extremely overgeared right now. I prefer to keep my brake speed under 120 mph for safety reasons and we were getting over 100 mph using second. That could add a little more loss, so I suspect the 60 crank horsepower would be in the area.

Not that I give much value to a dyno figure. Dyno readings are easily manipulated by the operator. I could do a inertia test while running the bike through the gears and get much higher peak readings without changing anything.

I only figure dyno readings are valuable from one pull to the next on the same day with the same operator using the same procedure and that operator needs to be doing it for his own information and not trying make an impression on someone. That is why I seldom quote dyno figures. Jim

Hortons Norton said:

Great to see you are back at it, What are the dates you are looking at, (event?) Bub?

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We will be running at the Bonneville Speed Trials August 27th through September 1st. (formerly Bubs)

http://bonnevillespeedtrials.com/

Worked on the LSR the last couple evenings and was able to fit the exhaust on the bike without having to cut holes in the fairing.
Can't wait to see the flame thrower in the dark. I think I had better paint some flames on the side of the fairing so we can see flames in the day.

INOA Rally 2016
I had not planned to attend the INOA Rally this year in Quincy CA since I still have much to do to get ready for Bonneville. On Monday the 11th I woke up and thought if I don't make it to this one with the Sir Eddy's Rocket then it may be a few years until I will be able to get to another rally.

I got busy finishing up some of the last modifications we wanted to do including getting the pipes fitted. My buddy Eric said he would be able to come out Wednesday and weld up the pipes so I thought why not push to head out Thursday morning. After three long nights we were all done and ready to load her up and head out.








We had about an 11 hour drive from Portland Oregon to Quincy California and had beautiful weather the entire way. When we finally arrived at the meet Thursday evening we got the motorhome setup then grabbed a beer and headed over to where the crowd was.

The next morning we went to see if we could register and put the bike in the concours. Being that we didn't pre-register I wasn't sure that I would be able to participate. Everyone volunteering was very helpful and we were good to go.

We unloaded the bike and had it sitting on the lawn outside the trailer, just pulling the bike from the trailer was an emotional ride knowing that my father's dream was getting that much closer to reality.



We pushed it over to the event area and placed it in the competition lineup. Man did it look cool sitting in the concours with about 15 other very nice race bikes and over 200 Norton's and multiple classes.







I was so honored to have my father's dream on display, there was a ton of interest and many people either read about it on Access Norton and knew the story.
After the show I saw my buddies Jim Comstock and Ken Canaga sitting under the Smith's tent so after putting the bike away we grabbed our cooler and enjoy the afternoon drinking some beers in the shade. Nothing like a cold beer and bike buddies.

That evening we went to the awards banquet. There we multiple classes that were represented by some incredible Norton's.



After the first couple of classes I noticed that they were asking the first place bike I each class if they wanted to say something. When it came to the competition class they called the 3rd place then the second place and I thought oh well maybe Sir Eddy's Rocket didn't appeal to that many people because it was an LSR bike. Then they called first place and said Paul Bilton-Smith. Oh man I could not believe it, my emotions started to pour out in honor of my father. When I got the to mic I was able to get two words out before the emotions took over. After a long pause I was able to say a couple more words finishing this is for my father.



After the awards were finished for the classes the president Suzi Greenway approached the mic again to give out the Presidential Award. She said she wanted to present this to a person and a family and then looked over at me and said my name. Oh man did I lose it. I knew that I had to try and get my composure to try and say something. After giving Suzi a hug and said lets see if I can't do a better job than the last speech. This time I think I got four words out before the emotion came over me again. I can't explain what it means to receive awards in honor of my father.





I have so many people that have helped make this dream come true. Jim Comstock was the saint, Jim spent so much time on the spintron to develop a valve train that would rev to 10,500 rpm and did all the final development to make the bike reliable with hours on the dyno so we can do what we set to do. Les Barker was part of all the early development and agreed to help me get the bike from parts and pieces to a roller and then the initial running bike. Eric Gustin for all his help with the chassis and tanks, he has endless hours of welding into the bike. My mom and brother in law PJ and family but most of all my wife Paige for the support for the last three years putting up with my long evenings in the garage or across town.

This is all about one thing, my father Ed Bilton-Smith. I am looking forward to getting to the salt and seeing if we can't put this in the record books as the fastest 500cc pushrod motorcycle on the planet.

Congrats, job well done and an inspiration all Norton faithful
Regards Mike

Congratulations with the awards! Wish you good luck in Bonneville!