Shorai batteries

TonyA · Apr 19, 2018

Well then I am wasting my time with this dumb test of mine. Everybody needs to do a current draw test for the battery with the key off . Then lets compare notes . What if MX has a much greater draw then this is the problem , and he gets to the bottom of it. So Iwilson has a 11ma draw . Lets start from here.

MxMartin · Apr 19, 2018

TonyA said:
Well then I am wasting my time with this dumb test of mine. Everybody needs to do a current draw test for the battery with the key off . Then lets compare notes . What if MX has a much greater draw then this is the problem , and he gets to the bottom of it. So Iwilson has a 11ma draw . Lets start from here.

Well I now have more 'mods' and 'checks' lined up than I have spare riding time so I will knuckle down and get as much done/checked and out of the way even if we now have the best riding weather so far this year! I will start with my battery/current draw while my seat goes off to the upholsterers.

Fast Eddie · Apr 19, 2018

Let me get this straight...

You ride on salt strewn roads in March... and send your seat away as we face the hottest April days in 70 years...?

MxMartin · Apr 19, 2018

Fast Eddie said:
Let me get this straight...

You ride on salt strewn roads in March... and send your seat away as we face the hottest April days in 70 years...?

Yeah, but it is my spare seat

I jarred my back 2 days ago so can't ride, been as miserable as f*** so might as well get oil cooler bracket, led's, battery test, seat cowl alignment, seat upholstered (oh and carbon fly screen) out of the way. I could well do without any more urgent quick fixes so if you come across any keep them to yourself for a few weeks

Fast Eddie · Apr 19, 2018

Sorry to hear that Mark, hope you’re back on the road very soon.

What do you mean with the ‘Carbon flyscreen’? You’ve already got one...!

MxMartin · Apr 19, 2018

Fast Eddie said:
Sorry to hear that Mark, hope you’re back on the road very soon.

What do you mean with the ‘Carbon flyscreen’? You’ve already got one...!

When I was out at KH I noticed that the gel coat on mine has a large thumb print size area where the gel is lifting away from the carbon, so looks flat grey as opposed to black, only when sun hits it at precise angle. I spotted this when new but was much smaller area then. I need to take fly screen off so I can get angle right to photograph it before contacting Norton.

MxMartin · Apr 22, 2018

TonyA said:
Well then I am wasting my time with this dumb test of mine. Everybody needs to do a current draw test for the battery with the key off . Then lets compare notes . What if MX has a much greater draw then this is the problem , and he gets to the bottom of it. So Iwilson has a 11ma draw . Lets start from here.

I have started my diagnostics and my static current draw is 42.1mA ! My basic maths suggest that over a period of 48hours an 11.8Ah battery would have lost 17% of it's capacity.

The current draw can be broken down further.... 22.8mA 961 and 19.3mA my auxillary USB port. I have now removed my USB port and in theory doubled my standby time

I then started the process of removing fuses, relays etc and to cut a long story short the 22.8mA current is supplied by fusebox fuse marked 'F1 10A clock/optimate/OBD pin16/ECU Power Down Relay', there is no residual current draw on any of the other fused lines. I note that when battery is connected I can hear a quiet 'click' coming from inside the speedo so think there is a small relay inside.

Bottom line is my static current draw is 22.8mA, double that of Iwilson, I don't yet know if my figure is 'within range' or indicating a problem.

worntorn · Apr 22, 2018

Martin, which model of battery do you have?
As far as ah storage, Li batteries have approximately 1/3 the big label #.
So the LFX18 has about 6ah storage from fully charged @14.4 v to fully discharged @12.8v
So as far as storage is concerned , Li batteries are as tiny as their physical size and weight would indicate.
They also need a fairly high voltage charging system. Being modern I would guess the 961 has that. A lot of older bikes don't.

Glen

MxMartin · Apr 22, 2018

worntorn said:
Martin, which model of battery do you have?
As far as ah storage, Li batteries have approximately 1/3 the big label #.
So the LFX18 has about 6ah storage from fully charged @14.4 v to fully discharged @12.8v
So as far as storage is concerned , Li batteries are as tiny as their physical size and weight would indicate.
They also need a fairly high voltage charging system. Being modern I would guess the 961 has that. A lot of older bikes don't.

Glen

Glen mine is an LFX19A4. The box says it has a Pb equiv. of 19Ah.

It is currently disconnected from bike. I gave it a charge 2 hours ago and the Shorai charger took it from 13.56V to 14.38V then shut down and I disconnected the charger. 2 hours later the voltage is now reading 13.36V, nothing connected, so I am not sure whats going on with this battery

worntorn · Apr 22, 2018

So Martin that has about 6 amphours of actual power in it.
The 19 pb equivalent rating is misleading.
All it means is that for a one time momentary discharge ( dead short or starter load) the Li battery is equal to a 19 amphour lead acid battery.
It doesn't actually have the power over time capability of the 19 ah lead acid , not even close.

Shorai does show this info on their site, but it takes a bit of digging to find.

I learned about pb eq the hard way. I brought along a Ballistic Li battery as spare battery for a long trip. The charging system failed and I thought, no problem I've got this spare 18 ah fully charged battery, I can ride for hours.
It barely lasted 30 minutes. On reading at the Ballistic site I learned about pb EQ ratings and actual storage.
I had a 6ah battery with an 18 pb EQ rating.

Glen

MxMartin · Apr 22, 2018

Glen, I've just found the info on the Shorai site, plus additional charging tips, would be good if they included this in with the battery!

Yep, 6.4Ah, which means my 42mA parasitic draw would have had a significant impact over 48hours, my simple maths suggest capacity would fall by over 30%. Now that I have got the key-off current draw down to 23mA that should improve things a little. What I haven't tested yet is how the bike cranks over as capacity is reduced. A test like Tony was suggesting, leave 1 day; 2 day; 7 day etc without charge to see what effect this has.

worntorn · Apr 22, 2018

Martin, that's not sounding good with the voltage drop . Lead acid batteries do drop back quite after charging but my recollection of the Li batteries is that they did not drop back much after charging.

I agree, they should be more upfront about actual ah capability. The pb eq isn't what most of us need, it's the true AH number we want. I believe this should be right on the battery label.

Glen

MxMartin · Apr 22, 2018

worntorn said:
Martin, that's not sounding good with the voltage drop . Lead acid batteries do drop back quite after charging but my recollection of the Li batteries is that they did not drop back much after charging.

Glen

I thought the same, everywhere talks about how Li holds its charge but was difficult to asses 'charge' versus 'voltage', then I found a table on the Shorai site

It seems that although a Li holds it's charge it's actual voltage may fall. Also, a Li charger won't necessarily charge to 100% capacity. Shorai also go on to say that a Li will hold its capacity for longer the closer you get it to 100% charge and keep it there, alas the dedicated charger shuts off so you can't do that.

I just checked my battery again and it is still at 13.36V after 4hrs and according to the chart is something in excess of 90% capacity, which is probably close to where the charger left it.

worntorn · Apr 22, 2018

Right, I had forgotten the indirect relationship between a Li battery top voltage and power available. So as long as it holds the existing voltage ( no load) things should be fine.
The Shorai do seem to be a lot less fragile than the Ballistic batteries I sampled.

Glen

Fast Eddie · Apr 23, 2018

At the risk of speaking too soon and tempting fate here...

I run 3 bikes with Shoria batteries, and apart from charging them when I first took them out of the box, I’ve never charged them again.

I think the Shoria is plenty good enough for a 961 IF the voltage drop isn’t crazy.

It will be very interesting to see what your further tests yield Mark.

The instruments, with their time clock must take a drawer, but I would have thought this was tiny (under normal circumstances).

And still at the back of my mind is the idea of a decent battery isolation switch.

speirmoor · Feb 16, 2019

Fast Eddie said:
.And still at the back of my mind is the idea of a decent battery isolation switch.

Has any one done this? Seems like a good idea

Fast Eddie · Feb 16, 2019

speirmoor said:
Has any one done this? Seems like a good idea

I didn’t. It’s still at the back of mind mind as an option if needs be. But as it is, I seem to be one of the fortunate ones who don’t suffer any power drain.

Now, there’s tempting fate huh !?

TonyA · Feb 17, 2019

OK , I have been looking at the Euro4 electrical drawings . I think we shouldn't waste time on which type of battery is better etc right now . But rather stay on the " drain trail " . I Think that MX Martin should focus on the Instument cluster and isolate them. Unplug them and see if your 22.8 MA draw goes away. Both the Speedo and the Tach use the unswitched voltage to pin1 (+ battery) . What if one of his instruments is malfunctioning ? I don't know what a Euro4 key off current draw is normally , If FE could measure his (a good one) we will know . OR if Norton (Rob) could get obtain a figure ? At this point FE is the gold standard for Euro4 key off current draw . Until we can get another Euro4 key off current draw measured ; can we use the Euro3 (9 to 11 ma) as a obtainable benchmark ?

TonyA · Feb 17, 2019

And couldn't you put the DVM set for current mode in place of fuse F1 (10 A optimate/clocks) for testing ? Also, after looking at the Euro4 drawings again I see that the ECU Power Down Relay does not use the F1 feed . It is fed directly from the Main 30 A fuse. So if all of your key off drain is coming through F1 (optimate/clocks) it is probably not that relay ? You can always pull it out if in doubt . I'd have a closer look at those instruments.

speirmoor · Feb 18, 2019

I'll jump in as soon as I get power. Right now I believe there may be a way to revive the Shorai (and save $150) so working on that at the moment.

Shorai batteries

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