Lithium batteries

So after my lithium batter failure at the weekend, I thought it was worth a post, as there was chatter on the pictures thread.

A bit of a background. The battery cradle on my 961 had cracked, not only on the battery side, but the coil pack side, so I welded reinforcements on both sides, as well as welding up the cracks. I decided to go with a Lithium battery and I thought the lightness would be of benefit. I've been running his for around a year, making sure it was connected to the charger whenever it was in the garage, keeping it in storage mode. I just checked my receipt and it's dated 22 March 2021....so more than a year I guess.

I also bought the specific charger for this battery....which I was not overly keen on, as the connector isn't locking. I guess no real issue normally if the battery is easily accessible, but on our bikes, you can't easily access the battery, so you have to leave the lead attached.

Things have all been fine to date. I came to start the bike last Friday to go to the Norton rally and nothing. Dead. I did not notice if the status of the lights on the charger, however. I do know we had a power cut during the week...so maybe the charger did not come back on? I did not think to check. All my other chargers..I have 3 other vehicles on battery tenders...were fine.

Measured the voltage at the Norton charge connector at the tail of the bike. 4v. There's my problem. Connected the charger and both lights alternating then settles to green flashing, indicating charging. Left it for probably an hour, up to 12v and the bikes starts a few times, no issue. Happy days! Get my gear, off I go to Brooklands! Park up and Find MrBikerJon, who has bravely ridden his Domi from the hinterlands of Wales. Speak to the guys at the museum and ask if we can bring the bikes around to the Campbell gate and access the main site, as our bikes would not look out of place. They kindly agree and we start the bikes and off we go...it was maybe a mile or so to the other gate. Parked up, had lunch, looked around the museum. I was hoping after an hour on the road, voltage varying between 13 and 14v ish on the display, the battery would have had a good charge. We were at the museum maybe three hours, and after some photo's went to start the bike, but just a loud clicking sound, although turn on showed 12v on the display..but when trying to start, everything went blank. A separate volt meter would have helped here, but I suspect when I tried to start it, the current draw pulled the voltage way below 12v....10 and below is bad...indicating a bad battery.

After calling the AA, we got it stated and was advised not to stop until we got home...so off we went. Another hour or so on the road, got home. Stopped the bike. Immediately tried to restart. 12v shown then..same symtoms, display blank and loud clicking.

During the time with the AA guy, called our lord and savior Stu who gave me some points to check...removing and replacing the main fuse may have helped, but everything looked fine, but he advised just get a standard battery, as the reg/recs on the 961's may not be of the best quality (he may have used other terms, but his was the gist!). I bought the advised Yuasa ytz14s, installed in the bike and went happy on my way for the rest of the weekend, with no further issues.

The battery in question:





the charger



and the connector I don't like:



So, not sure what the warranty is (just checked - 1 year from the site I purchased from). Was the 14v I saw on my display too much? Could the power cut have caused an issue? I don't know. Right now my dalliance with Lithium batteries is at and end, as the Shorai is not cheap....currently £229.00 plus specific charger. I won't be tripping over myself to buy another!

Do you actually know if the battery is faulty ?

What happens if you put it back on charge with the correct charger ?

Fast Eddie said:

Do you actually know if the battery is faulty ?

What happens if you put it back on charge with the correct charger ?

Click to expand...

Well, I did charge it over night on the correct charger and will try in another bike, but at this stage, I don't trust it to put it into a bike I'm going to ride...leave a few hrs and ride again. It was on the correct charger permanently before this. It had enough juice to start the bike before I set off for brooklands...I saw 14v on the dash on the way over..then had enough juice to start the bike one more time before failing makes me wary of it. Additionally, the ride home gave it a good hour of charging on the bike...and once again, not able to turn the bike over after immediately trying again upon stopping the engine. It might be fine, but my confidence is not high. I still don't know what caused the deep discharge if it was on the charger all the time and if the deep discharge caused this issue and it simply needed a full charge.

I'll report back once I know more....

I wasn’t asking if you’d tried it on another bike.
My point is only that the Shorai charger is a charger / repairer / storer / maintainer / monitor.

If you use that it should tell you if the battery is ok or not.

At the moment you don’t know the battery is at fault.

Are you using the charger properly? If left connected it goes into store mode, that only keeps the battery at 80% and you’re supposed to switch to charge before riding (that’s done to maximise battery life).

One weakness of the Shorai is those charging terminal pins can corrode (go green and manky) and they should be packed with dielectric grease to prevent this.

You may be over charging it. Lithium (in this case LiFePO4) batteries do not like voltage extremes, like anything outside of 11.5-14.5. Problem is most bike regulators pump out more than 14 volts (i do not know what the 961 puts out). They also maintain their charge so you don't need to keep them on a maintenance charger (unless the bike has a lot of parasitic draw). The problem here is putting them on a maintenance charger after they've been overcharged by the bike's regulator just compounds the problem.


I personally like the optimate charger because it supposedly can revive lithium batteries (i have not had to use this feature though).


I also just picked up a battery monitor so i can know exactly what my battery is doing.


Lithium batteries provide advantages, but they certainly are more finicky and you need to understand how that differ from lead acid batteries

A lithium battery at 11.5 volts is a rare thing. They are designed to shut down in order to prevent phase change and destruction at somewhere above 12 volts. Discharging below the shutdown will see the voltage fall off a cliff, down to 2 or 3 volts or so.

The interesting thing about a Lithium battery is that when it it seems dead it still has lots of internal capacity to destroy itself at high temps thru phase change, melting the case etc. That's why the internal low voltage safety switch is incorporated.
When lead acid batteries are taken too far down they can also commit Hari Kari, just not at high temps.
Shorai warns not to allow the voltage to drop below 12.8v at any time.

Glen

Correction, 12.8 was the old minimum voltage. Reading up to date info on the Shorai site, they now advise to charge when voltage gets down to 13.3v.
I suspect that is to give a little more of a reserve in order to avoid potential problems.



Glen

TomU said:

You may be over charging it. Lithium (in this case LiFePO4) batteries do not like voltage extremes, like anything outside of 11.5-14.5. Problem is most bike regulators pump out more than 14 volts (i do not know what the 961 puts out). They also maintain their charge so you don't need to keep them on a maintenance charger (unless the bike has a lot of parasitic draw). The problem here is putting them on a maintenance charger after they've been overcharged by the bike's regulator just compounds the problem.

How To Charge Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Batteries - Power Sonic

A complete guide on how to charge lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries. Learn about the charging of a lithium battery from Power Sonic

www.power-sonic.com

I personally like the optimate charger because it supposedly can revive lithium batteries (i have not had to use this feature though).

OptiMate Lithium 4s 0.8A - OptiMate

The OptiMate Lithium 4s 0.8A is the essential battery charger for 12.8V/13.2V LFP (Lithium-ijzer-fosfaat) batteries. Find out more!

optimate1.com

I also just picked up a battery monitor so i can know exactly what my battery is doing.

Lithium Battery Tracker

The Antigravity Battery Tracker is a Bluetooth Monitoring system for your 12v Lithium Battery’s health. Track its voltage, starting performance and charging.

antigravitybatteries.com

Lithium batteries provide advantages, but they certainly are more finicky and you need to understand how that differ from lead acid batteries

Click to expand...

Your statement of "Problem is most bike regulators pump out more than 14 volts" and is the issue here is not only incorrect but you are helping move along a false narrative by people who don't understand or have any knowledge of lithium batteries.

Modern regulators are just fine for a Shorai. NOT ONE INSTRUCTION STATES TO CHANGE YOUR REGULATOR ON A MODERN MOTORCYCLE OR CAR.

We have installed last I checked over 150 lithium batteries and not one issue with them. You can drop a Shorai into a modern vehicle with no issue at all. On vintage, you have to change the regulator but for modern it's no issue at all.

We have installed more on Harley Davidson because of the increase in cranking amps and have no issues with them. The draw at starting from a Harley is very taxing and lithiums handle it just fine plus recharge well even considering the extreme heat of the HD engine.

As for 961, if you haven't installed a lithium you are missing a chance to help a poor idling/ operating bike improve- well minus the parasitic drag some have. Every 961 we work on gets lithium, usually from Anti-Gravity but occasionally Shorai if they want the high-tech charger

The main point for lithiums is they all(unless noted on some small cell systems) have a battery maintenance system. The primary function of the BMS is to "protect the battery cells from damage caused by being overcharged or over-discharged"

There are some issues but that usually is beyond the battery and is correctable within the wiring or charging system.

Fast Eddie said:

I wasn’t asking if you’d tried it on another bike.
My point is only that the Shorai charger is a charger / repairer / storer / maintainer / monitor.

If you use that it should tell you if the battery is ok or not.

At the moment you don’t know the battery is at fault.

Are you using the charger properly? If left connected it goes into store mode, that only keeps the battery at 80% and you’re supposed to switch to charge before riding (that’s done to maximise battery life).

One weakness of the Shorai is those charging terminal pins can corrode (go green and manky) and they should be packed with dielectric grease to prevent this.

Click to expand...

This right here ^^^^^ is spot on for the Shorai. The charger while stupid and expensive will tell you if you have failed cells or other issues.

City Garage said:

Modern regulators are just fine for a Shorai. NOT ONE INSTRUCTION STATES TO CHANGE YOUR REGULATOR ON A MODERN MOTORCYCLE OR CAR.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're good if the regulator pumps out less than 15v (the lower the better )

City Garage said:

As for 961, if you haven't installed a lithium you are missing a chance to help a poor idling/ operating bike improve- well minus the parasitic drag some have. Every 961 we work on gets lithium, usually from Anti-Gravity but occasionally Shorai if they want the high-tech charger

Click to expand...

@City Garage can you tell me more about this? And which Anti Gravity model you use?

The Chinese reg/recs on 961's are far too inconsistent imo for a lithium...seen a fair few running at a constant 15+ volts whilst on a test ride. If fitting a lithium, you really should invest in a mosfet reg/rec at the same time.
The weight of the battery has little influence on the battery boxes failing....that shite design is having to support the full weight of the fuel you're carrying, and in some cases, tank bag too.
The battery box is also the route cause of failing aluminium tank welds, at the front behind the oil filler. The solution we came up with the Tab ii Classics tank, was a simple underbrace that links the two tank mounting points. It eliminates the tank flex, but doesn't do anything for battery box fractures.
As a side note, the standard battery is not lead acid, its an AGM.

Fast Eddie said:

I wasn’t asking if you’d tried it on another bike.
My point is only that the Shorai charger is a charger / repairer / storer / maintainer / monitor.

If you use that it should tell you if the battery is ok or not.

At the moment you don’t know the battery is at fault.

Are you using the charger properly? If left connected it goes into store mode, that only keeps the battery at 80% and you’re supposed to switch to charge before riding (that’s done to maximise battery life).

One weakness of the Shorai is those charging terminal pins can corrode (go green and manky) and they should be packed with dielectric grease to prevent this.

Click to expand...

Well, you didn't ask if I had tried it on another bike and I didn't tell you I had tried it on another bike . You'll have to put up with any additional information I type!

Yep, I get that the Shorai charger is a storer/maintainer/charger and can give an indication of if it's below 50%, but it can't tell me if the battery is OK or not. It can go into charge mode, it can go into store mode, but I don't see that as indicating if it's OK or not. The instructions say don't let the battery drop below 13v. My battery was at 4v. What that actually means as far as battery health is concerned is not clear to me, so at the moment, correct, I don't know that the battery is at fault. I also don't know if the battery is good. The fact that it charges doesn't tell me if it will retain charge or if it can reliably provide cranking current. The only error condition it seems to be able to give about the battery specifically is: "4 flashes/pause = Battery/Cell voltage error. Cell variation issue, use the store mode for 24hrs, then charge to correct issue". I don't get this, so does that mean my battery is OK? I don't know. I'm not convinced, but open to being put right on that. Acid test, does it perform as it use to and can I charge it correctly and then have no worries about going out for the day. Having to be recovered is a right PITA.

I typically do switch it to charge mode before riding, but in this case, I'll admit I did not, as I just wanted to check the bike would actually turn on (It has been a few weeks since I had touched it) and nothing, bike totally dead. It was down to 4v, so 'something' happened. Shorai state that the battery will still provide strong cranking power at well below 60%, so my quickly turning on test would not draw anything like cranking current. Maybe it wasn't connected correctly. The connection into the charger is very poor and easily dislodged. Maybe it was the power cut. Shorai instructions say that when you turn it on, if one of the buttons is not pressed within 30 seconds, the charger will power down..but I've seen it go straight into charge mode (although not always..so may be charge level dependant)....and not seen it power down..unless 'power down' means both LED's are on...which it could be. Either way, it's not clear what does /is supposed to happen in a power cut/power restored scenario. The instructions would tend to indicate the charger will power down....which isn't a great given I'd hope I can leave it unattended for extended periods, like an optimate charger....which do just carry on after a power cut.


I'll give it another go and report back. It's on the bench in charge mode right now.

Good point on the corroding connections. Clean right now, but worth putting some dielectric grease on there for sure.

Vernon240 said:

Yep, I get that the Shorai charger is a storer/maintainer/charger and can give an indication of if it's below 50%, but it can't tell me if the battery is OK or not.

Click to expand...

Yes it can ! Thats why I asked the question.

I’m not at home now so can’t tell you how, but the charger will flash in a certain way if the battery is in any way faulty.

It is your surest way of either identifying the battery as the culprit, or ruling it out altogether.

I think the instructions are written on the charger. Or at least the box.

Page two…

I'm not saying all Lithium batteries are bad but I'd a terrible experience with Shorai batteries. Whoever wrote the instructions for the charger should be shot with a shovel.
On my Dominator it was a roll of the dice whether the bike would start or not, even if left on the charger when parked. I switched back to regular AGM and all is good.
On my KTM I was left stranded an hour from home. Bike dies suddenly in traffic, limped bike downhill to the nearest gas station and find out no voltage. Bought an AGM off the shelf at Pepboys and bike ran fine til I sold it 2 years later. My gut feeling is the Shorai battery was not accepting the charge and I was running total loss.
On my Ducati 998 everytime I went to start it Shorai was dead. This bike definitely doesnt have a parasitic draw yet the battery would never stay charged. Switched back to AGM, keep on charger and all is good.

Look at this Link, One Bike failure after another.

Fast Eddie said:

Yes it can ! Thats why I asked the question.

I’m not at home now so can’t tell you how, but the charger will flash in a certain way if the battery is in any way faulty.

It is your surest way of either identifying the battery as the culprit, or ruling it out altogether.

I think the instructions are written on the charger. Or at least the box.

Click to expand...

Hmm, not sure it can, I have read the manual, the instructions on the charger and the indications are very limited. I'm not sure it can indicate if it's faulty in any way. Closest Ihave seen is in the manual

"Errors are indicated by a flash/pause sequence of both LED flashing together. An alarm buzzer may also sound until error is corrected or power off:  1 flash/pause = Internal input voltage error. Check that AC power is in range and properly connected. Try another outlet.  2 flashes/pause = Polarity error. Not typical.  3 flashes/pause = Open Circuit. Charge cables not properly connected, broken, or worn. Inspect and/or try new cable set.  4 flashes/pause = Battery/Cell voltage error. Cell variation issue, use the store mode for 24hrs, then charge to correct issue. "

Looks like 4 is the only real indication of a battery error

BUT if you have any other details, it would be great! Right now it indicates fully charged at 13.5 v as of this morning, so disconnected it from any load...lets see where the voltage goes. I'll leave it until Monday or Tuesday and see if it starts a bike. Maybe a better test is now put it in storage mode....then on charge mode just before trying on the bike...then going for a ride and coming back, then seeing if it starts. Hmm..it's as much to do with my faith vs if the battery is OK!

The other question is, I'm not sure how these batteries fail..as I'm sure they will at some point...do they not hold charge? fail to deliver enough current? just die pretty quickly?

Vernon240 said:

Hmm, not sure it can, I have read the manual, the instructions on the charger and the indications are very limited. I'm not sure it can indicate if it's faulty in any way. Closest Ihave seen is in the manual

"Errors are indicated by a flash/pause sequence of both LED flashing together. An alarm buzzer may also sound until error is corrected or power off:  1 flash/pause = Internal input voltage error. Check that AC power is in range and properly connected. Try another outlet.  2 flashes/pause = Polarity error. Not typical.  3 flashes/pause = Open Circuit. Charge cables not properly connected, broken, or worn. Inspect and/or try new cable set.  4 flashes/pause = Battery/Cell voltage error. Cell variation issue, use the store mode for 24hrs, then charge to correct issue. "

Looks like 4 is the only real indication of a battery error

BUT if you have any other details, it would be great! Right now it indicates fully charged at 13.5 v as of this morning, so disconnected it from any load...lets see where the voltage goes. I'll leave it until Monday or Tuesday and see if it starts a bike. Maybe a better test is now put it in storage mode....then on charge mode just before trying on the bike...then going for a ride and coming back, then seeing if it starts. Hmm..it's as much to do with my faith vs if the battery is OK!

The other question is, I'm not sure how these batteries fail..as I'm sure they will at some point...do they not hold charge? fail to deliver enough current? just die pretty quickly?

Click to expand...

I’ve had one fail by not excepting a charge (that was a tiny battery on a bike with a charging fault, so it went very flat, this was maybe 15 years ago) and one fail by showing a flashing light. That one took and held a charge and probably would have worked OK, but I didn’t think it was worth the risk so binned it. Interestingly, that was actually the one I had on my 961, that I subsequently used on my ‘old’ Commando.

These batteries should literally hold a charge for YEARS if not connected to a draw. So if you go back to it after a few days and it hasn’t, then it’s faulty.

I had one fail with great heat and smoke plus destruction of my expensive charging system. The other just went out with a whimper. It stopped providing charge and wouldn't accept any. Warranty involved purchasing a new battery at a slightly reduced cost, but I wouldn't have installed another one had it been provided free of charge.
Those were made in USA Ballistic Lifepos, company now defunct
The Shorai is made in China which makes you think low quality, but oddly enough they seem to be one of the better Lifepos.
They do have a significant failure rate however.
This poor Ducati looks like it was targetted by a Javelin toting Ukrainian Soldier. LiFePo got it!


Glen

Indeed, it’s the horror stories which made me dispose of the one that showed as bad on the charger unit even though it seemed to work fine. I don’t know what the issues was, but it was the one I’d had on the 961… maybe linked ?

The only other failure I’ve had is the one that I over flattened.

I think I’ve had at least seven bikes with Shoria‘s fitted, soon to be more, over at least 15 years. And they’re the only two I’ve had to replace. So, they seem to work well for me.