Self steering and top speed

Lots to study here when ya get can loose as a goose mostly just for fun not fast.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOFimB7ZA&feature=related[/video]

Acetrel's reports are exciting to read as no way can I play like that,- self steering faith coming out of good turns so bike just self corrects uprights and aligns still in lane on finishing - on an un-tammed isolastic Combat. Will have to wait another year for Peel to live again. What is only my mind this post is the effects of road crown and mixing-matching bias vs radial tires and self steering both good and bad. BMW sold bikes with radial rear and bias front or visa versa as I forget but did calm me down ordering what ever used race tires on my SV650 I could find cheap. On pavement and THE Gravel only thing that matters is the soft compound and air pressure as grooves can't dig into pavement or hard pack with marbles on top and grooves don't really matter in the wet on narrow cycle canoe shaped patch.

Anyway pressing my luck on THE G to 90's-ton, I found I could not ride the berms banks like racer on banked turns, as what happens is the tires climb the bank to over lean bike and shot off the crest into the ditch. Weedoggiedoo. What I learned was at some speed the crown of the inner loose 'road' humps and crown of the tires would climb each others crest to center on them like a belt on a crowned pulley. Around the ton I could not keep Peels tires in the smoother bottoms of stone cleared ruts! I also noticed that as the tires touched the up slope of center hump obliguely it tended to automatically trip front out into straight steer which automatically leaned bike and turned it inward on its own. This made bike tend to crash in the desired direction and kept us from sliding outward to fling off the outside loose banked berm in turns. It also tended to force the rear down more so more power could be applied w/o rear slinging out, which allowed even more speed even looser. This riding style seemed to apply on tarmac by hanging closer to inside and tripping out straight steering sharper with rear taking more power than expected.

The mixing of radial and bias is something I want to explore more. The radials seemed to climb crowns more than the bias tires but takes such scary rates to discover I'm not sure what the best combo is yet. I think I like radial on rear and bias on front best. I do like more rounded profile than wider flatter.

Here's one to watch on sloppy self steering elite racer but do not what actually saves him, the bike self straight steered w/o him having to do a thing but hang on. There is pure magic lurking in this event and seeing how much the various components are distorting - sure works better on an old fashioned compliant non rebounding isolastic for me.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-8Mwp-rTc&feature=player_embedded[/video]

I was 27 years of age when I started racing in 1967. I'd had a hotted up Triumph 650 road bikes since I was 19 and I'd become a fairly good rider through racing my silly mates around tight public roads.. The short stroke 500cc featherbed Triumph I started racing with was a nasty piece of shit . It crashed me all over the countryside. I crashed at the first five meetings and at Phillip Island I crashed four times in one day. I eventually got past my crash and burn stage without getting killed. These days, it takes a lot to get me rolling down the bitumen. You don't get to be a good rider by riding a nasty bike, but you learn to stay upright. These days, I am very conscious of how my bike is handling. It is a matter of relaxing as you ride fast, and watching where the bike goes naturally when you dont drive it. A lot of our Australian historic racers are based on road bikes. I believe they are always a compromise and a lot of the guys ride around their handling problems and just go a bit slower.

It often pays if you totally lose the front end, to let go of the bars and grab the tank and keep throwing the bike upright. I know this sounds horrible, but if the bars and forks are crashing against the stops, all the energy comes right through them, and if you hang on you can get flicked over the front. You will sometimes see riders fall of a bike, and the bike stays upright and goes straight ahead. If my bike ever goes into a tank slapper , I let go of the bars really quickly, and worry about recovering a bit later. In one race, I lost the front end and because I hadn't raced all year, didn't let go quickly enough. I was flicked over the front, slid up the road on the top of my head, and by the time I reached a small ripple in the surface, was on my side. - Got a dislocated chromo-clavicular joint, and I was really pissed off because we were fooling around out-braking each other when it happened. - The sort of accident which can kill !

Yep, you're right that does sounds horrible, but also jibes with what my Pops had told me before. Fortunately I've never experienced a tank slapper at speed, so never had to deal with that demon. I'd did almost kill myself a couple of times racing out on the streets and going waaaay faster that I had any business going down some of those roads back then. Which is why I'd decided to sell my bikes when I started having kids (didn't want then to catch the fever). Turns out they only care about video games and so as you can see I'm back at it. Thanks for the words of wisdom though acotrel. Cj

The first time that I ever raced, my two boys were watching as I locked the brake at the end of a long straight in the wet, and slid off into the escape road on my back. Years later the older one bought himself a Kawasaki 750 so he could commute. I once asked him 'you never thought of racing ?' He answered 'NO - we saw what happened to you !' I am so glad that my kids were never obsessed with bikes and never raced. It is OK doing it yourself, it is self indulgent. But to watch your kids doing it would be ghastly.

A friend of mine was in Europe with Kim Newcombe when he got killed. He had t o get the family back to New Zealand, and it did his head in. A while ago he was up here at Winton with his son and a late model TZ250. He was a lmost dying of anxiety while the kid was racing. I said to him 'Rod- you can't be like that'. Later again I asked him how his son was going. Rod told me that the kid had hit a car with his bike on a public road, and his arm went through the window, and he lost the upper muscle. I said ' You were worried about him racing'. He answered 'Yes, I know' !
My brother races Historic Spedway sideca rs, a nd is pre tty unbeata ble. But there were videos we never s howed our mother w hile she was a live. Especially the one where the Kawasaki 750 twostroke jumped into the back of another outfit, shot the two of them over the front, then jumped right over them. It had four bends in the sidecar, and even the back wheel was bent.
This video was taken at the same meeting, he won't let me upload the one showing the crash :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYnXEQ0Aw1I

Jeeze Louise acotrel you sound like me crashing once or twice within a few miles of my driveway trying to get to tarmac. Took me till 5th day before I made it and yes each slow crash took off bike parts and broke minor stuff on me too. I really had to have an inner talk with my rational vs irrational parts til finally just told the rational part to fuck off and get over it or get me out of cycles all together again, like I had after my P!! for about 40 yr gap into water motorsports where the splashes didn't hurt as much, but still broke neck and ribs and limbs skiing or tossing out of hydroplanes into high sides. On 6th day out in public the locals discovered me on Combat and i them so invited to 160 mile group run to a camp out no one told me was at a drag stripe event, so next 7th day when rusted mufflers fell off on hwy practice launched getting some wheelie nerves reserves, it opened up the top end power nicely I got in line for the time trials and on 5th attempt trying to out jump the wheelie bar 1200 over cammed for street Sportster - beat him off the line to fold rear tire and take out R knee so just skin and some vessels and nerves holding it on. That was the first of 4 or 5 severe knee injuries each one bad enough that just lifting leg would leave lower leg on ground till skin stretch snapped it back up into scattered joint almost black out pain as ground came up to catch me again... If I'd gone medical route to repair I'd of had to sell off bike and tractor and mower and no one here would of ever heard of me at all.

Acotrel is so right that a bad bike don't teach you anything but riding slower not to crash or going bezerk to try to out ride its crash tendency. Acotrel I fear for your future as landing on head injures neck ligaments that hold correct relation of each segment and over all neck curve so wear/decay sets in to dissolve the disc spaces then the bone on bone spurs that hit the blood supply to brain stem and rest of the controls to limbs and organs till one day no more reserves left to enjoy life. Long term solution to keep in mind as this hits, if not already, is stretching and mild traction routine to regrow yourself forever till the easy end of you. Acid reflux and sleep apena and heart arrhythmia as well as numbness tingles and boring pains are evidence of past spinal injury getting ahead of your recoveries and not enough vital mineral complexes taken to repair rather than just get by with some squirming till the bitter end.

Back to not crashing - a good cycle does indeed self correct- up to a point- then pilot skill/bravery comes into play. The thing about which way to steer, away from turn or into the turns depends on how close to the edge of traction either end of bike is. This can transition one flop to the next though as seen in crash video or your own flash backs. THE Gravel taught me not to depend on forks hardly at all when getting close to the limits, only pay attention to what the rear is doing and just use forks to help it tip over or rise back up OR just keep front tire aim out of the way of resisting or interfering with what rear is doing to actually steer/turn cycle. If you can stay on enough power the rear is always over powering the front then pilot don't have to do much but damper forks form tank slap as bike behavior transitions in and out of counter and straight steering antics at and over the edge of traction at one end of the other or both. Its just no more fun to me to try this on moderns or normal Commandos as they get too unpredictable to save at some point escalating the tank slap till low or high sides ya.

Until I got over thinking the front steers at hi power leans and speed I kept crashing on and off tarmac on moderns to vintage. Now I never load forks much - just use throttle and lean to relieve forks much as possible which give me some reserves -if front washes out- so what - I'm not needing them to hold front up or aim bike around, so just stays hooked on leaned rear to finished the turn > with a good bit of a groin spike fear as the forks do a quick flipperoo but bike self corrects to stay in same lean or get on back upright to nail more power - remembering the loads in bones/joints of crazy handling onset to either avoid it or know its there to extra throttle and speed through it before time to upset us. In other words learn where you are going to crash and either just ease up or know to over do it on purpose *ahead* of time to get it to crash the way you want it to then carry on...

When I first started racing there was a much older and experienced rider who told me 'you have to get racing miles under your belt, and the bike has to do something for you'. I addition, I once had a conversation with Hugh Anderson, the Suzuki 125cc World Champ. He said 'on your day when you are really good, nobody can beat you'. These days I ride a bike which does all the right things. I am long past fighting with nasty shit-heaps ! My Seeley Commando is the only bike I've ever ridden which really inspires confidence, and I am still careful.

Hehehe ole acotrel, a ride like your Sealy may only happen once in a fella's life and can make your flashbacks a constant delight in the back ground as rest of life gets in the way of living it up some more.

Today I got to practice, nay perform a good bit of what we've been writing about BUT on a freaking rubber baby buggie Commando. First was on leaf covered dry Gravel trying to kick up heel a bit for first time try of a pillion peg video mount.
Crossed up some with forks wanting to jerk about but wasn't going manic speed so eased off with light damping forks till settled back inline. Then rooster tailed up mostly a straight climb out no problemo then hit hwy and being a bit late ran up into 80-90 in gusty conditions blowing leaves down and around like rain then noticed I couldn't compenstate for the weaving and heart sunk rear was leaking down 10 mile from home and 10 miles from appointment, so picked up the pace to inflate roundness better till got so squirely it zinged me into far lane in a sweeper, slightly crossed up like THE Gravel but rather less nerve wracking rode the wiggle worm 10 th mile more in far lane till pull off spot to park and start walking. It was exhilarating ride w/o injury so flat didn't deflate my mood waking away wondering how this would turn out. No traffic going my way for a mile walking then a biker on sport touring Honda picked me up and dropped me in front of clinic only a few minutes late.

Was dark cold front drizzle after new tube and pissed wife to rescue, but dang tire was deformed, so lumpy riding on smooth road expecting a de-rim-ing or deer strike. Made it to THE Gravel but couldn't see its texture well by 'hi beam' + shield wet so had to just take it as it came about 30-35 keeping a firm but relaxed grip on forks so they could twitch and snatch a bit road texture/stone skipping w/o tank slapping slam down - made it ok. At these easy rates its automatic for pilot and bike to counter steer but I can't relax like that not knowing what may snatch us down so stayed in tension to force some straight steering and mild lean so the little trips outs pitched us more upright than right smack down.

Not temped to try prophylactic tube sealant goop, Hobot? -[or a 'bib mousse'?]

No goop in my tires thankyou. Don't yet know if a puncture or a tube pinch over a stone or hole. I only allow myself tire spin-drift luxury when tire is brand new and when its almost showing cords. Almost every time I kick up heels in car or cycle I get a flat in one or two tires. I can't tell ya how much low to no air riding trains for avoiding or recovering race like over doings. I did get scared just pissed on the rear flat til it got so flat I could not resist the wind gust side loads w/o fear of re-riming resisting it with some hinging onset. That's when gave up riding @ 80's and braced for wiggles of slow speed til stopped. No rim lock put in last time. If ya want to fully test self and cycle self steering, come on out with trashy leathers and crash cage on favorite ride.

Peek in at Trixie Pix for sense of looseness w/o crossing up or drifting. Next time should have a view of fork action to confuse ya on published physics of cycle handling. The robo cycle programers use this to steer their rider less bikes.

I note that tubeless tyres seem to be much less puncture prone, but maybe tubes are safer in certain circumstances -like low pressure rim/tyre [sudden]separations.

Tubless are as prone to puncture as tubes, just that tubeless tends to hold some ridable air longer than tubeless that usually gives some mild hints its low and not wind then suddenly tube rips/splits and the riding it out contest is on.

I plug my tubeless with tar cords and just remember no more spinning them until patched inside or replaced. Peel is going tubeless but so far doesn't hold air long enough so must esculate up sealing methods. I can't recommend highly enough to play with low air tires before racing around into surprise handling behavior.

From the Graeme Crosby memoir, relating to this topic, as a 500 G.P. racer, switching his factory ride from Suzuki to Yamaha, in `82.
"From the 1st lap of Yamaha`s test course I knew I was in trouble, - big trouble. The bike handled like a roller-skate in a gravel pit & steered like a shopping trolley. It gave no feeling of confidence, particularly as I turned into a corner when the front wheel felt like it had not even arrived with me. The contact patch trailed somewhere under the middle of the bike...the triple clamps were machined with different top & bottom offsets to create a divergence angle. The aim was to create a constant trail length under braking. Aside from the technical part it was hideous to ride...the steering head angle was completely different from what I`d experienced. Before leaving Suzuki I had accurately measured the XR 35...wrote down all the data...I could transfer them to this Yamaha relatively easily...the 1st few laps of Misano confirmed the need to have the steering angle changed & without too much discussion the bike was stripped down...the steering head cut off & re-welded, this time at the correct angle...back at Misano doing laps on what felt like a completely different machine. It was one I could work with & I quickly got down to some really fast times."

Here's an example of phase 3 handling and how much hook up it requires plus straight steering to onset it and catch its G force sharpness

Check out this racing incident, give careful appraisal to the forces acting on the rear wheel...did the tyre or rim [catastrophic failure-wise] let go 1st? [If the bloody link wont work, its K.C.`s crash at Indy `12]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAze6w4g9S4

& why lighter machines have intrinsic safety factors... last lap, 250 G.P. Turkey `06..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0T8Xa6cYGw

Thanks JAW for the flash back of moderns forced accidentally into phase 4 straight steering handling into air borne cross ups unpredictable and too fast and forceful for humans to react to dangerous corner cripples that take super men paid to ride em. I may be the only one to break down the 5 phases of handling transitions into the components that distinguish them so dramatically from the previous one and the next one beyond.

Can't exactly say what upset the racer but I do know those fatso rear tires get real funny near edge and fast changes of surface traction, like going from tarmac to painted area, can't make up their minds on the shape or area of the patch to stay centered on, then twitches back through frame into forks which then down a tank slap which feeds back to the iffy rear patch reaction. If ya look real real close you will see he was saved because pilot lost control and bike took over to straight steer rescue. Learning to do this on purpose to get the chassis shakes settled before landing got me pulled off corner school every freaking time i went out and did what i came to learn. I realized that I could not get away with that in public because the whip lashing of too rigid chassis could not be perfectly predicted each and every time so felt more lucky than skilled doing it.

Then half compliantly half robustly linked Peel invited me into this phases so precise and predicable time after time - its all I can think about 24/7 as way better than sex, even to sex hound like me, as gives way more intense rushes with repeated climaxes with a never ending after glow....

hehe I'm a stick puppy not seeking no cure just another phase 4 hit.

One of the few articles that describes straight steering at speed since the robo cycle programs were revealed by DARPA team almost a decade now.

http://www.renj.com/content/MotorcycleS ... eering.pdf

Know anyone practicing to take on robocycles once they mature? Yeah man bring it on!

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