Hydraulic steering damper and trail.

robs ss said:
If you consider when the last "smoker" Kwakas were made, you really think the damper would still be a thing to trust? - I dont think so Noddy!!
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If a damper has oil in it and can be adjusted to give resistance, it is usually adequate. I cannot think of anything on my bike except the tyres , which is less than 49 years old. - The battery is new. Everything is pre 1975. - That is frightening when I think about it,
 
ashman said:
Is AI bot anything like Youtube as I think Al spends too much time watching Youtube.
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How do you further your education if you do not watch Youtube ? I have never had a HECs debt. While I was working full time, I was often studying part-time. In fact, I have a graduate diploma and a post-graduate diploma, and a couple of other qualifications. I had 10 career changes and each time I stepped up one, I studied the areas in which I felt inadequate.
I don't think the next lot of kids who are coming along will be able to do that - those days are gone.
 
acotrel said:
If a damper has oil in it and can be adjusted to give resistance, it is usually adequate. I cannot think of anything on my bike except the tyres , which is less than 49 years old. - The battery is new. Everything is pre 1975. - That is frightening when I think about it,
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You have actually used a damper? I thought they were against your religion. Thats sort of like a Rabbi eating pork isn't it?
I'm not so sure about "adequate" - what about the old seals?
"frightening" does seem to sum it up though.
Me? I'll buy new.
 
I went to Mount Gambier with my mate to race the Seeley 850. There were three young guys with us who used to terrorise the Great Ocean Road on Sundays. John was a pleasant bloke. He said 'whenever we fall off our bikes, we could be killed'. I have never believed that. He went out ahead of me in practice. Over the back of the circuit, there is a blind corner on the top of a hill. As I whizzed around there I rode between John and his bike - both lying on the track. John's bike had a broken frame. I had listened to his mate all the way to the meeting and was hearing him again on the way home. I said to him 'you know those two trophies in the back - if john had not fallen off his bike, he might have won those'. Some people worry too much - these days I would never crash - my mate knew that and should have told my wife. I can still drive my car and the bike is easier.
 
Agree that every bike should have a steering damper, but it should also handle well without one.
I suggest that every time you change something that may affect handling ( forks, tires..) you take the bike for a ride without the damper to see all is fine.
I have an LSL damper on my Commando. Not cheap, but rebuildable.
 
Further my education through YouTube, I don't think so Al, I have better things too do in my life, like ride my bikes and hang with my old mates, doing things to keep me busy, using my hands and using my brain to build things, watching the idiot box, no thanks, Al you need to get on your bike instead of looking at it in the shed or overthinking things you watched on YouTube, not everything on YT is right, even in old age you need to keep active as they say use it or lose it and if you waste your time in front of the TV to much you will lose it.
Anything hydraulic are rebuildable even steering dampers and of course are fully adjustable to all road conditions and adjust to your riding style as they do make a difference no matter how good your bike is set up.

Ashley
 
acotrel said:
There are only about 5 ways to crash - once you have done them all, they no longer happen.
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Sure wish that were true. Riding on the street has a larger menu for crashes. Some you learn from. Some you have no control over at all.
 
I fitted Kawasaki steering dampers to my road Commando and racing Domi in the 70’s and always used the hardest setting. They were useful on 2 occasions, once on the Commando in the rain, downhill at 80 when a badger decided to cross the road in front of me and head butted my front wheel, followed by it hitting my foot and bending the rear-set foot rest. The second was on the racer in a 70 mph bed when I went off my normal line and hit a small resurfaced patch. Both occasions were a bit scary but the dampers did their job.
 
"Kawasaki" steering dampers are just a generic

NHK ODM500​


NHK : Steering Damper ODM-500 [20-14-76]

www.webike.in

Available most anyplace.

www.bertrumsbikebits.co.uk

NEW NHK ODM500 263mm Steering Damper Z900 Z1000 GS750 RD350 YPVS Cafe Racer - Bertrum's Bike Bits

A NEW 263mm Steering damper this will fit many early Japanese bikes. Please look at the picture and ask me for any sizes if you [...]
www.bertrumsbikebits.co.uk www.bertrumsbikebits.co.uk

4585924F-2D62-4F57-A930-4FBAF62C4FBD.jpeg


I have them on 3 bikes. (Including the Commando)
Kawasaki was probably just first to fit them on production bikes.


More than one clever reseller calls it "H1, H2" and triples the price:
88313132-0D2D-47F1-B628-0BF67BC6E453.jpeg
 
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I have a steering damper that is rebuildable, but I can't get it apart. lol

I cannot run it full stiff. The bike reacts like the head set bearings are too tight when I do that.

I don't understand the relationship between a steering damper and trail. I didn't watch the video. It probably wouldn't help. I never actually think about trail ever. Seat of the pants suspension tuner and it's just technobabble to me.
 
Based on some research I did some time back, these items are identical to what Norton sold as an option.
I installed one on my Commando to deal with handlebar wobbling at lower speeds when the bike was carrying loaded panniers.
I discovered that it worked best in the "off" position, meaning in the off position there was a very small amount of resistance and that is all it needed to solve the problem.
 
We have had a discussion about the effect of increasing trail has on stability. You might think that more trail makes a bike more stable, however without a steering damper , more trail makes a tank slapper more likely. The issue of stability is misleading. More trail tends to make the bike oversteer, and less trail tends to make it understeer. If your bike needs countersteering to get it to tip into corners, it would probably tend to run wide if you accelerate in mid-corner. More trail can give a major advantage -if you accelerate in mid corner, the bike can self-steer in the correct direction. And accelerate safely. The extremes of trail produce self-steering.
If you change your yoke offset, do not ride the bike without an hydraulic steering damper.
If you watch that video, you will see how confusing your bike's handling can be. The guy in the video has been struggling for a long time. The effects are very subtle,and unless you stick your neck out, you do not discover what your bike can do.
 
The fact that most of the road racing organizations I raced with required steering dampers leads me to believe they are a good idea. I had them on all of my race bikes. I had at least one off track excursion (broken Commando rear axle) where I believe the damper saved me from crashing. I don't have them on my street bikes, but I still think they are a good idea. I just have to get around to fitting them.

Ken
 
acotrel said:
We have had a discussion about the effect of increasing trail has on stability. You might think that more trail makes a bike more stable....
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We had that discussion, and in that discussion not 1 single person agreed with you.

How do you explain that? So, Not one other person here knows the relationship between trail and stability except you?...

Pick any one of the known race track guys who post here and ask them about the relationship between trail and stability. See if you can find 1 person who agrees with you.... Good luck with that...😆
 
By stability, I rean reluctance to turn. Hold the front brake while enter a corner so the rake steepens, and see if the bike turns more easily. Then put a pillion passenger on the back of your bike without raising the suspension and see how your bike steers into corners. Reluctance to turn is understeer. More rake gives oversteer. If you brake into a corner and the brake does not come off at the transition point, you will run wide because of the understeer (stability). I do not imagine these things - when I was a kid I dodged small trees at Phillip Island because of a dragging brake. How do you get out of the situation if you get into a corner too hot and start running wide, if you do not pick a point and accelerate ? As soon as you accelerate, the bike will usually oversteer in the correct direction - the direction of lean. When you have a lot of trail, the bike usually becomes relatively more nimble.
 
If you watch those superduke videos, you will see the guy is uncertain uncertain of the effect of increasing trail. It takes a big leap of faith to grab a big handful if throttle when you are in the middle of a corner at high speed. I only ever did it by noting how much I could advance the transition point in corners, when I lapped consistently. When I started racing I always tried transition from braking to accelerating in the middle of the corner with no rolling distance. My transition point is now at the beginning of the corner. As soon as I am in a corner, I accelerate flat out. I am an extremely risk conscious person - the speed differential in corners can be a bit high. But when you race a slow bike against fast bikes, it has to be faster in corners.
 
I have a nice vintage Japanese NHK 32-8 adjustable steering damper that was on my '82 GS1100E Mr. Turbo Bonneville bike. I'm not sure if it helped at 184 MPH back in 1985, as I wasn't riding it, but it couldn't have hurt. The bike was built for the flats by Don Vesco's shop I think they knew a bit about such things. It spent the majority of its life going in a straight line. Riding on the salt might be a bit squirrely.
 

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