Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance

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springer said:
So it is if i see well 58.4 mm. Mine are 62.. as seen, So i can play at least with 4 mm total narrowing of the hub. Thank you very much.
Click to expand...

Cannot see your picture.

I would think you could go further than 4mm, I base that on the wheel madass140 has shown. I imagine the lateral stiffness and strength of a wheel is directly related to how far apart the hub end of the spokes are, and as madass140 has moved 50% of the spokes to the inside and extended the length of those spokes between the bend and the head, both actions I believe would reduce the lateral strength and stiffness of the wheel. But as madass said he hasn't done the wheels for a while because of aesthetic rather than failures, then the wheels are obviously more than good enough as is.

The difference between the inner and outer width of the spokes at the hub is far grater than 4mm.

I build my own wheels and when I did them for the Yellow Norton I was using for track days, I used stainless spokes and was breaking a spoke every two or three outings, at Spa I broke two over the weekend.

I phoned Hagon for advice and was asked if the spokes that were breaking were inner or outer, they were all outer and the ones under tension whilst accelerating. The advice given, was to re-spoke the wheel with all the spokes that are under tension whilst accelerating on the inside or switch to steel spokes, I went with the inside spoke advise and i haven't broken another spoke in that bike since.

When I built the wheels for the Seeley, I again used the inside spoke advice but when I started racing, I found a broken spoke, so I have re-spoked that wheel with steel spokes but still with the spokes that are under tension whilst accelerating on the inside. No more broken spokes.

If I have a problem with my front wheel, I will re-spoke it with all the spoke that are under tension whilst braking on the inside, but so far it has not been a problem.

I notice that madass140 has spoked his wheel with the extended bend to head arranged in alternate tension and compression whilst braking, only my opinion but I would put all the spoke with the shorter bend to head in such a way that they are all under tension whilst braking.

Like I said just my opinion as I am not a professional wheel builder.
 
springer said:
Another to de- press the 3 piece hub and narrow it but dangerous for the hub to press it on again and may affect the rigidity of the wheel.
Any others?
Click to expand...

If I remember rightly, my first hub from RGM was three piece and was a gentle push fit together.
 
storm42 said:
Cannot see your picture.

I would think you could go further than 4mm, I base that on the wheel madass140 has shown. I imagine the lateral stiffness and strength of a wheel is directly related to how far apart the hub end of the spokes are, and as madass140 has moved 50% of the spokes to the inside and extended the length of those spokes between the bend and the head, both actions I believe would reduce the lateral strength and stiffness of the wheel. But as madass said he hasn't done the wheels for a while because of aesthetic rather than failures, then the wheels are obviously more than good enough as is.

The difference between the inner and outer width of the spokes at the hub is far grater than 4mm.

I build my own wheels and when I did them for the Yellow Norton I was using for track days, I used stainless spokes and was breaking a spoke every two or three outings, at Spa I broke two over the weekend.

I phoned Hagon for advice and was asked if the spokes that were breaking were inner or outer, they were all outer and the ones under tension whilst accelerating. The advice given, was to re-spoke the wheel with all the spokes that are under tension whilst accelerating on the inside or switch to steel spokes, I went with the inside spoke advise and i haven't broken another spoke in that bike since.

When I built the wheels for the Seeley, I again used the inside spoke advice but when I started racing, I found a broken spoke, so I have re-spoked that wheel with steel spokes but still with the spokes that are under tension whilst accelerating on the inside. No more broken spokes.

If I have a problem with my front wheel, I will re-spoke it with all the spoke that are under tension whilst braking on the inside, but so far it has not been a problem.

I notice that madass140 has spoked his wheel with the extended bend to head arranged in alternate tension and compression whilst braking, only my opinion but I would put all the spoke with the shorter bend to head in such a way that they are all under tension whilst braking.

Like I said just my opinion as I am not a professional wheel builder.
Click to expand...
Thanks , i like the way you analyse it.
Madass's hub looks like a 5 bolt twin Norton Hub or RGM but in any case , assuming it had the same basic dimensions like mine then i could go even 4 mm each side. That way i would n t have to touch my calipers. That would be sweet because they are NOS 2195 s from Mick Hemmings. But anyway all these show that the wheel would be ok by narrowing that sort of amount and my front end could be finally assembled if eveything goes ok. And probably thanks to all that have contributed. There is my picture:
Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance
 
"
I imagine the lateral stiffness and strength of a wheel is directly related to how far apart the hub end of the spokes are, and as madass140 has moved 50% of the spokes to the inside and extended the length of those spokes between the bend and the head, both actions I believe would reduce the lateral strength and stiffness of the wheel"
Harley Davidson build there wheels identical to the one I showed
 
madass140 said:
"
I imagine the lateral stiffness and strength of a wheel is directly related to how far apart the hub end of the spokes are, and as madass140 has moved 50% of the spokes to the inside and extended the length of those spokes between the bend and the head, both actions I believe would reduce the lateral strength and stiffness of the wheel"
Harley Davidson build there wheels identical to the one I showed
Click to expand...

Yep and I was being critical but not criticising, like I said you have a proven wheel but would you agree that as far as lateral stiffness is concerned, it would be less stiff than a wheel laced with half the spokes on the outside?, now weather or not the extra stiffness is actually needed could be answered by your wheels being fit for purpose as they appear to be.

I suppose you could argue that your wheel has more torsional and radial stiffness because of the narrower spoke angle.

However I would still build the wheel with all the shorter bend to head spokes under tension whilst braking as I cannot see how the extra unsupported length of spoke between head and bend can provide as much resistance to tension as the shorter ones and in my mind that is almost like reducing the number of spokes under tension by half, you have proved that to be unnecessary but I would feel better in myself, it is just how I see things.

Like I said I am not a professional wheel builder so all just theory on my part.
 
storm42 said:
It is odd but all I see is a black square with a no entry sign in the middle. Let me try moving to Greece and see if that alters things.
Click to expand...

As you can see from my avatar, i am in Greece now and I still cannot see the pic, very odd.
 
Thanks for the welcome :) still cannot see it, I get a password error from Google.

I will bugger off back to Blighty as I have a Google account here and see if it will let me use the link here.
 
madass140 said:
sorry that pic is small. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-19-dyna-49mm-spoke-sealed-bearing-single-dual-disc-spoke-front-wheel/143454232633?hash=item216689e039:g:33kAAOSw50Vd3ocs&LH_ItemCondition=4

Twin disc hub
Click to expand...
Thanks Madass, it is a nice wheel. Probably the point is that if we lace a already narrow hub with the spokes from the inside we narrow it more. the Dyna Wheel you have at ebay does not have a very narrow hub to begin with. Anyway some cast wheels have even narrower "cast spokes" it is all about rigidity. I have now 3.2 mm thick spokes , i can move up one size of 3.8 mm (because it fits) and the result could be even more rigid. The problem is that we cannot test it beforehand , that is why i am searching for already applied solutions to compare.
 
storm42 said:
Thanks for the welcome :) still cannot see it, I get a password error from Google.

I will bugger off back to Blighty as I have a Google account here and see if it will let me use the link here.
Click to expand...
photobucket, sorry if it s too big

Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance
 
storm42 said:
Thanks for the welcome :) still cannot see it, I get a password error from Google.

I will bugger off back to Blighty as I have a Google account here and see if it will let me use the link here.
Click to expand...

Nope, still no j
springer said:
photobucket, sorry if it s too big

Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance
Click to expand...
I can see that and that hub looks like the one i have on the yellow bike, although mine is a bit scruffy.

Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance


I cannot measure it because both discs are on, I will see if I can get dividers in for a rough idea.

But that brings up a problem as now I can see your picture, I have re-measured my hub in the same place as you and get 61.2mm which is as near as dam it to yours.

Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance


This is the clearance I have between the calliper and spokes.

Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance


And this is my calliper mount.

Seeley - Norvil Front Hub Dual disc spoke-caliper clearance


My rim is 18", are you on 19"s?
 
storm42 said:
Nope, still no j

I can see that and that hub looks like the one i have on the yellow bike, although mine is a bit scruffy.

View attachment 15632

I cannot measure it because both discs are on, I will see if I can get dividers in for a rough idea.

But that brings up a problem as now I can see your picture, I have re-measured my hub in the same place as you and get 61.2mm which is as near as dam it to yours.

View attachment 15633

This is the clearance I have between the calliper and spokes.

View attachment 15634

And this is my calliper mount.

View attachment 15635

My rim is 18", are you on 19"s?
Click to expand...
Thank you for all the pictures, So now i have a Minnovation fork yoke 7 3/8 centers , my rim is a 18 inch 2.15, the hub is similar to yours, we have the same GP35 forks, the discs may be different to what extent i dont know. An now that i see you have that clearance, maybe the new calipers are narrower?. In any case if i save somehow 4+4 mm i ll be ok having about 2 mm clearance from the spokes. So i guess i have to shave 6 mm from the hub and 1mm from the caliper or something like that. Bare in mind i don t have with me the discs and carriers to measure , these are at the shop of my mechanic . And i dont have yet caliper mounts.
 
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