Please check diagram and confirm for me

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I believe stock Norton wire is 18 AWG for everything. I would use 16 AWG for the main feeds and headlight, 18 for everything else should work. You could probably get away with all 18 AWG if so inclined. I like marine grade wire because it is supple and tinned. Color choices are limited and $$.
Pete
 
Deets55 said:
needing said:
worntorn said:
What size fuse would be used on the alternator side, say for an rm 23 180 watt setup or the three phase 180 watt?

Glen
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Needing is correct 15 amp should be fine.

Wire size dictates fuse size, a short run of 18 gauge @ 13 volt and 15 amp is fine.

http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt- ... e-amps.htm

Pete
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That makes sense, 15 amps @12 volts is 180 watts, the Max output of the alternator, so the fuse needs to be big enough to handle that current.
The only thing is, actual system voltage when running at highway speed is around 13 volts, so it would take 13volts x15 amps or >195 watts to burn the fuse. At highway speeds the 180 watt alternators put out around 120 for the single phase rm 23 and maybe 140 for the three phase, so it would seem unlikely the fuse would blow in the event of a sustained charging power to ground happening.
It's tough to come up with an effective way to fuse it, because it needs to be fused for the Max output, except we want that same Max output to somehow burn out the fuse should things go to ground. It seems unlikely to do that with a 15 amp fuse, but a smaller fuse might annoyingly pop during normal use if the bike was revved up briefly with a low battery for example.
Perhaps it needs a GFCI breaker! :D

Glen
 
That makes sense, 15 amps @12 volts is 180 watts, the Max output of the alternator, so the fuse needs to be big enough to handle that current.
The only thing is, actual system voltage when running at highway speed is around 13 volts, so it would take 13volts x15 amps or >195 watts to burn the fuse. At highway speeds the 180 watt alternators put out around 120 for the single phase rm 23 and maybe 140 for the three phase, so it would seem unlikely the fuse would blow in the event of a sustained charging power to ground happening.
It's tough to come up with an effective way to fuse it, because it needs to be fused for the Max output, except we want that same Max output to somehow burn out the fuse should things go to ground. It seems unlikely to do that with a 15 amp fuse, but a smaller fuse might annoyingly pop during normal use if the bike was revved up briefly with a low battery for example.
Perhaps it needs a GFCI breaker! :D

Glen
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The alternator output is rated in watts, so as the voltage goes up the amperage goes down. Jim
 
With the charging system hooked directly to the battery if a short takes place the main fuse will blow. This will take both the battery and alternator/regulator out of the loop. The only way the alternator fuse will blow is if the battery goes to dead short or the wire from the regulator somehow goes to ground. Both are pretty unlikely. That is really a redundant fuse. You are in good shape from here.

One more thing as volts go up amps go down, one is a function of the other.

As far as wires are concerned if you get you hands on a good used harness you will have all the colored wires you need, just add any mods you might need.

Pete
 
Right Jim, the 195 watts refers to the amount of power needed to blow the 15 amp fuse at 13 volts system voltage when running at a good clip. The output at highway speed is well down from there around 120-140 depending on the info source. My point is that the 15 amp (that 15 amp rating doesn't change with voltage) fuse can't be blown by the alternator output, so it really offers no protection on charging output going to ground, the intended job, although, I might have my numbers all wrong, or be looking at it incorrectly, again.

Joe, that section of wire from the regulator to battery is unprotected by the main fuse as drawn, so depending on the length you might still want to fuse the reg wire at the battery end to protect against battery current going to ground thru it. If the regulator itself should develop a short circuit at some point then the fuse would blow to stop battery current dumping thru things. A ten amp fuse should handle the 120 watt output of your alternator.
it is amazing what damage a yb14 battery can do when usfused and touched to ground, I think you could arc weld with it for a few seconds

Glen
 
Glen,
Interesting point about max output of alternator not exceeding fuse rating. I am not sure how a system like ours would react to a dead short. I wonder what would happen in this case:
Battery voltage is very low to the point of being almost dead, you get the bike started and run it down the highway at 4000 rpm's with the headlights on. The alternator needs to charge the battery, and power the ignition and lights. The bike is trying to draw more power than the alternator is designed to produce. Will it: a)try to make more that the rated output and overheat, or b) will it max out at it's rated output and possibly still overheat trying to catch up?
Will the fuse blow in either case?
I know fusible links and slow blow fuses are used in auto alternator feeds. I guess the trick is to get the correct rated fuse/link.

It's funny you mentioned un-fused wire to ground. I brought this up last year. If you are using a battery tender trickle charger (on a positive earth bike) and hook it up according to instructions the exposed pin on the bikes pig tail will cause a direct short if it hits any part of the bike, in my case the primary cover. The wires to the battery instantly vaporized. The negative wire needs to be fused in this case. I got away cheap, only the pig tail was destroyed and burn marks on the inside of my side cover.

Pete
 
Deets55 said:
I know fusible links and slow blow fuses are used in auto alternator feeds.

Pete
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This is to protect the output diodes in the alternator, in the unlikely event that some well-meaning dumb high school kid gets the jumper cables backwards in attempts to jump-start a dead vehicle. Man, those fusible links smell bad! Not that I've ever smelled one... :oops:

I won't argue with having some type of fuse in the alternator's output, if for no other reason than it would protect the rectifier/regulator if the battery was to ever be installed backwards.

Nathan
 
Deets55 said:
Glen,
Interesting point about max output of alternator not exceeding fuse rating. I am not sure how a system like ours would react to a dead short. I wonder what would happen in this case:
Battery voltage is very low to the point of being almost dead, you get the bike started and run it down the highway at 4000 rpm's with the headlights on. The alternator needs to charge the battery, and power the ignition and lights. The bike is trying to draw more power than the alternator is designed to produce. Will it: a)try to make more that the rated output and overheat, or b) will it max out at it's rated output and possibly still overheat trying to catch up?
Will the fuse blow in either case?
I know fusible links and slow blow fuses are used in auto alternator feeds. I guess the trick is to get the correct rated fuse/link.

It's funny you mentioned un-fused wire to ground. I brought this up last year. If you are using a battery tender trickle charger (on a positive earth bike) and hook it up according to instructions the exposed pin on the bikes pig tail will cause a direct short if it hits any part of the bike, in my case the primary cover. The wires to the battery instantly vaporized. The negative wire needs to be fused in this case. I got away cheap, only the pig tail was destroyed and burn marks on the inside of my side cover.

Pete
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Pete, my knowledge on alternator output is limited to what I have learned chatting with Paul Hamon, who makes the Alton, and bits picked up here and there, so feel free to correct.
My understanding is that both the Lucas Alternators and the Alton just produce power based on rpm up to their Max ratings, and no matter what is happening in the system this is the amount they produce.
When some or all of this power is not needed for charging because the system voltage has reached the designed level, the excess power is dumped to ground via the zener diodes for the Lucas or via the PODtronics type reg for the Alton.
The result is that electrical energy is transformed into heat, hence the cooling fins on the Pod and need to keep zeners out in the breeze.
Automotive alternators are more complex and are controlled by the voltage in the system such that the alternator produces less power and has less drag as the charging load decreases.

So, according to Paul, in effect our systems are dead shorting continuously as far as the alternator is concerned.
Kind of a drag! About 1/2 HP at Max output with all inefficiencies of drive etc added in, again according to Paul.

Glen
 
Glen,
Thanks for sharing that. Lot of interesting info there.
Now if it would only stop raining/snowing and warm up.

Pete
 
I've been watching the weather back east in the US and Canada, it's pretty incredible. Toronto has another extreme cold weather alert going on, temps to -20c tonight with wind chill. Insane with April almost here.
Been as extreme on the mild /warm side for Vancouver and the whole west coast this winter/spring.

Glen
 
joeboomer999 said:
Sitting outside in the sun in shorts and a tshirt right now in victoria :)
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Thanks, I feel much better now.

P.S. did you want to add "with a hand full of loose wires?" : )
 
worntorn said:
My understanding is that both the Lucas Alternators and the Alton just produce power based on rpm up to their Max ratings, and no matter what is happening in the system this is the amount they produce...

...So, according to Paul, in effect our systems are dead shorting continuously as far as the alternator is concerned.

Glen
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Lucas; yes. Podtronics; no. As said in an earlier post, the Lucas system can be compared to riding around with the throttle wide open, and using your brakes to control the speed. In the case of the Podtronics, the internals pass controlled bits of the incoming power from the stator, thus only letting enough current into the system to maintain the proper voltage. Theoretically, if the battery voltage was up where it should be, no power would make it through the regulator. I have mine mounted next to the battery, and it barely gets above ambient, whereas the original system did a respectable job of warming the z-plate unless all the lights were on.

Nathan
 
Standard Norton wire seems to be close to 18AWG. Should be fine. Personally I would use 16AWG for main feeds and headlights.

Pete
 
Nater_Potater said:
worntorn said:
My understanding is that both the Lucas Alternators and the Alton just produce power based on rpm up to their Max ratings, and no matter what is happening in the system this is the amount they produce...

...So, according to Paul, in effect our systems are dead shorting continuously as far as the alternator is concerned.

Glen
Click to expand...

Lucas; yes. Podtronics; no. As said in an earlier post, the Lucas system can be compared to riding around with the throttle wide open, and using your brakes to control the speed. In the case of the Podtronics, the internals pass controlled bits of the incoming power from the stator, thus only letting enough current into the system to maintain the proper voltage. Theoretically, if the battery voltage was up where it should be, no power would make it through the regulator. I have mine mounted next to the battery, and it barely gets above ambient, whereas the original system did a respectable job of warming the z-plate unless all the lights were on.

Nathan
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Nathan, my knowledge of this area is like the Mississippi, wide and not very deep, so I checked with John Healey, the owner of PODtronics. His info is in line with how Bob Kizer of Cypress Ignitions described the system to me some years ago and also with Paul Hamon's(Alton) description
. Bob developed the PODtronics regulators then sold the business (Cypress Ignitions) to Healey's, owners of Coventry Spares. Coventry now distributes the PODtronics products to about 35 dealers.
According to John, the PODtronics does the same job as the Zener, it just dumps excess alternator energy to ground which creates heat. There are no control wires going from the Pod to the alternator, just the alternator output wire connections. As John put it simply " The Lucas (or Alton) is a permanent magnet alternator so output cannot be controlled except by rpm"

So here I was briefly thinking I had increased the RWHP of my Commando by adding the PODtronics but it turns out it is unchanged. Oh well, it still feels pretty good!

Glen


Glen
 
worntorn said:
Right Jim, the 195 watts refers to the amount of power needed to blow the 15 amp fuse at 13 volts system voltage when running at a good clip. The output at highway speed is well down from there around 120-140 depending on the info source. My point is that the 15 amp (that 15 amp rating doesn't change with voltage) fuse can't be blown by the alternator output, so it really offers no protection on charging output going to ground, the intended job, although, I might have my numbers all wrong, or be looking at it incorrectly, again.

Joe, that section of wire from the regulator to battery is unprotected by the main fuse as drawn, so depending on the length you might still want to fuse the reg wire at the battery end to protect against battery current going to ground thru it. If the regulator itself should develop a short circuit at some point then the fuse would blow to stop battery current dumping thru things. A ten amp fuse should handle the 120 watt output of your alternator.
it is amazing what damage a yb14 battery can do when usfused and touched to ground, I think you could arc weld with it for a few seconds

Glen
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A sparks 3 phase will blow a 15 amp fuse if the output is pulled low enough. I haven't checked this with a single phase alternator.
As voltage goes down the amps go up. Jim
 
comnoz said:
A sparks 3 phase will blow a 15 amp fuse if the output is pulled low enough. I haven't checked this with a single phase alternator.
As voltage goes down the amps go up. Jim
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I sense a video demo coming.... :mrgreen:

I can see that the Sparx should be able to melt a 15 amp with 210 watt Max output. The fuse would work better with big alternators with excess power since they are capable of producing more power than the normal load requirement. They are much like the battery in that the battery has momentary power to melt any normal fuse you might have, should power go to ground.

Glen
 
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