one piece rear axle (2012)
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Old Bloke said:Astounding. I just received my axle from Madass this afternoon. Paid on Tuesday afternoon, arrived at my door today at 4PM, thats 3 days from the Phillipines to Me in Lancashire. To put that in context, I'm still waiting for bits from Venhill(UK) that I ordered on Monday! I've never had such good service from an overseas supplier before. The Axle assembly looks a quality item, and I cannot wait to get it fitted, when/if I can get the bearings out of the sprocket hub.
In the hub, I have removed the felt washer cover, the felt washer, the washer, and the circlip, is there now a trick to remove the bearings, or is it brute force reqd?
Madass, Thanks for the Axle, great comms, good service and a quality product, who could ask for more?
I just used a little convencing on the dummy axle. Remember, the dummy axle is not needed anymore. That's one Original Norton Part that holds no nostalgia for me.
hello forum
I came in late here so please bear with me on this.
MADASS: is your one piece axle stainless or a combination of steel & SS. if stainless, what grade, 3 series, 4 series, or even 6 series.???
To the doubters, there are grades of stainless that are perfectly suitable for high tensile applications. To me the question is what characteristic of stainless would warrant it being used in this application. I am assuming that stainless is dearer than HT steel.
If the main consideration is cosmetic and corrision and u wish to buy stainless axles or any other part, go right ahead, but buy from someone who knows their metallurgy and uses the appropriate grade. I am sure these axles are indeed well made.
Good ol 4140 is the industry standard general purpose high steel. In competetive manufacturing what is needed is not the best possible axle, but one that is adequate and does the job at a competetive price. it is very easy to over engineer, especially if cost is no object. These axles subject to tensile and shear loads and therefore toughness is an important consideration.
Dont write off all stainless as being chewing gum.
Best wishes to all
Bradley
I came in late here so please bear with me on this.
MADASS: is your one piece axle stainless or a combination of steel & SS. if stainless, what grade, 3 series, 4 series, or even 6 series.???
To the doubters, there are grades of stainless that are perfectly suitable for high tensile applications. To me the question is what characteristic of stainless would warrant it being used in this application. I am assuming that stainless is dearer than HT steel.
If the main consideration is cosmetic and corrision and u wish to buy stainless axles or any other part, go right ahead, but buy from someone who knows their metallurgy and uses the appropriate grade. I am sure these axles are indeed well made.
Good ol 4140 is the industry standard general purpose high steel. In competetive manufacturing what is needed is not the best possible axle, but one that is adequate and does the job at a competetive price. it is very easy to over engineer, especially if cost is no object. These axles subject to tensile and shear loads and therefore toughness is an important consideration.
Dont write off all stainless as being chewing gum.
Best wishes to all
Bradley
Well said Brad.
Stainless steel is just a generic term for an alloy, being steel and a minimum of 10.5 % chrome.
It can also have nickel, molybdenum, titanium and copper in the mix giving it different characteristics as needed for the specific application.
Stainless steel is just a generic term for an alloy, being steel and a minimum of 10.5 % chrome.
It can also have nickel, molybdenum, titanium and copper in the mix giving it different characteristics as needed for the specific application.
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I got irrationally upset on first reading axle was SS, d/t the failures of engine cradle bolts, but then realized, if its magnetically attractive then its not very stainless brittle but more steel strong, and as no stress riser in the middle then likely will out last us and rest of the cycle. Even on my factory parts numbers only Trixie challenge, I could not consider this SS axle as cheating any more than repairing the early frames missing the under brace tube. When Trixie new dumb axle fissions again, I'll spring for madass safety up grade. The real worry I had was not able to fix a tire on side of the road fumbling with DS parts and wheel at same time while tired and pissed/depresssed single handed, but read report it worked out OK on flat fix, so no more points to list against it.
On this radioactive fission analogy of mine, there's been a lot of radioactive scrap metals put back in production so might be good to scan with a giger counter before installing axle, or using silver ware or jewerly or dental implants...
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q ... 39&bih=576
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q ... 39&bih=576
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q ... 39&bih=576
On this radioactive fission analogy of mine, there's been a lot of radioactive scrap metals put back in production so might be good to scan with a giger counter before installing axle, or using silver ware or jewerly or dental implants...
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q ... 39&bih=576
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q ... 39&bih=576
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q ... 39&bih=576
lcrken
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kommando said:
First post did say 4140, but material choice was later changed to stainless. Nothing wrong with using stainless steel for an axle, and Don has enough experience at fabrication to pick an appropriate alloy. I think the horror stories about stainless fasteners come from using low strength hardware store stainless fasteners, or stainless fasteners from questionable suppliers. Very high strength stainless alloys are commonly used for aerospace fasteners, but would probably be overkill for a Commando axle.
I did manage to break a one piece 9/16" axle (6AL4V titanium) I made for my Commando racer, but on reflection, I think it was because I had it a bit crooked in the swingarm to keep the rear tire in line, and I tightened it a lot to keep it in place, putting a lot of bending stress on the axle right at the threaded ends. Not the cleverest thing I ever did.
Ken
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SS cradle bolts supplied in past by the hi end vintage suppliers were the one's reported to fracture that most concerns us all, not mere decorative hardware drawer stcok. These were seasoned UK NOC experts since there were Commando's, not newbie show queen restorers. Beware of any really stainless Stainless steel that's weakly magnetic of any grade in cradle use and best go up to 7/16" for less hole beating up. Aircraft grade is quite good enough for me.
The good quality SS head bolts, such as Rocky Point has, is not very stainless either as Peel turned her's to dull brown deep down but they did their fastening job past tach peg stop rpm. Peel's head got to 425'F maxium at times YEEHHHWAW DOOGGIE DOOO DOO!!*&%^>>> [not sorry] but generally only 375'F when being only twice double nickle illegal which was most the time, otherwise normal boring legal temps were 325'F in full summer swelter. The axle is safe from heat staining or detempering.
Magnets and SS grades, clinic carts are magnetic, instruments aren't though blades and needles are.
http://www.mceproducts.com/knowledge-ba ... .asp?id=18
The good quality SS head bolts, such as Rocky Point has, is not very stainless either as Peel turned her's to dull brown deep down but they did their fastening job past tach peg stop rpm. Peel's head got to 425'F maxium at times YEEHHHWAW DOOGGIE DOOO DOO!!*&%^>>> [not sorry] but generally only 375'F when being only twice double nickle illegal which was most the time, otherwise normal boring legal temps were 325'F in full summer swelter. The axle is safe from heat staining or detempering.
Magnets and SS grades, clinic carts are magnetic, instruments aren't though blades and needles are.
http://www.mceproducts.com/knowledge-ba ... .asp?id=18
hello All again
hobot: be careful about grading stainless with magnets. This may be a quick test but there are exceptions.there are some austenetic 3 series stainless that will attract a magnet, maybe not as strongly as steel, but enough to say magnetic.. this method is not definitive.
just because it comes from a "high end vintage supplier", dont mean its appropriate either. Aircraft grade usually means tight control over composition and cleanliness. brent Woolfie or Actorel might explain this better than me.Again not very definitive.
And I think we can bury the geiger counter as superflous.
Icrken: very well put point
having seen a lot of stuff on fleabay, and having an interest in metals, I have made many enquiries as to the grade, especially where the component is load bearing. the most common response, (when I got one ), was free machining 303. I suppose they do not want to knock their tooling around but I bet madAss would not offer this grade as a high tensile fastner. The other response I got was deafining silence.
Errors, omissions and corrections on this post welcomed.
kind regards
Bradley
hobot: be careful about grading stainless with magnets. This may be a quick test but there are exceptions.there are some austenetic 3 series stainless that will attract a magnet, maybe not as strongly as steel, but enough to say magnetic.. this method is not definitive.
just because it comes from a "high end vintage supplier", dont mean its appropriate either. Aircraft grade usually means tight control over composition and cleanliness. brent Woolfie or Actorel might explain this better than me.Again not very definitive.
And I think we can bury the geiger counter as superflous.
Icrken: very well put point
having seen a lot of stuff on fleabay, and having an interest in metals, I have made many enquiries as to the grade, especially where the component is load bearing. the most common response, (when I got one ), was free machining 303. I suppose they do not want to knock their tooling around but I bet madAss would not offer this grade as a high tensile fastner. The other response I got was deafining silence.
Errors, omissions and corrections on this post welcomed.
kind regards
Bradley
B.Rad said:
Addition; a given alloy of stainless also does not give much of an idea on strength. For example both 304 and 316 rated metric bolts come in several grades form cheese to almost as strong as 8.8 or grade 5. Bolts of the same grade (and they both come in the same grades) are the same strength.
If I was making axles I would look at a duplex stainless (2205) to see how they stack up against 4340 etc
I would also not cryo treat a 3xx (austenitic or duplex) grade as it might well be below the martensite start temperature making the part very brittle.
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No magnets not definitive but interesting to observe. Would like someone to select a good grade of 3/8" "SS" engine cradle bolts and see if they last. No catastrophic engine failures I know of reported as enough others held by time discovered. I looked over SS enough to decide not to use it in Peels next engine, just SS scrap plate for air muscle mounts and some nuts and washers but not much other use for it. I do have a thing for SS though, so like seeing it in all its various textures and sheens.
Oh yeah like the repeating combustion pellet ejectors in my boating days.
Oh yeah like the repeating combustion pellet ejectors in my boating days.
lcrken
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For a nice primer on fastener tech, go to the ARP catalog at http://pdf.arpcatalog.com/ARPCatalog.pdf and read the fastener tech section. It includes a good explanation of their ARP 300 series bolts, which are a true stainless (high chromium content) and high strength at 170,000 to 180,000 psi tensile strength. ARP sells them in bulk packs in sizes suitable for Commando engine cradle fasteners. If you want to stick with the original stud configuration instead of bolts, ARP will make studs in custom sizes in ARP 300 material. They also sell the matching size nuts in the same material. Bolts and nuts are available in either hex or 12-point.
I used to be able to buy high strength NAS aerospace bolts from local surplus outlets really cheap, but that supply seems to have mostly dried up. Same story with surplus titanium fasteners. A Boeing engineer who specialized in designing titanium parts told me that the major aerospace companies had changed their policies on selling surplus titanium fasteners, and because of liability concerns would only sell them as scrap, with guarantees from the buyer that they would not be resold for use as fasteners.
FWIW, I had a set of cradle bolts and nuts made up in 6AL-4V titanium a few years ago by Mettec http://store.mettec.com/default.htm for a reasonable price. I was trying to get a race bike down to minimum weight at the time. For a street bike I'd probably go with stainless instead because of the cost difference.
I considered having ARP make up engine cradle fasteners in ARP 300, and packaging them as sets to sell under the Left Coast Racing label, but figured there wouldn't be enough Commando owners who would be willing to pay the higher cost to make it a worthwhile venture. That's the story of my life, too many ideas, not enough action. My hat's off to guys like Madass, comnoz, and others who put in the time and money to develop interesting new products for Commandos and actually bring them to market.
Ken
I used to be able to buy high strength NAS aerospace bolts from local surplus outlets really cheap, but that supply seems to have mostly dried up. Same story with surplus titanium fasteners. A Boeing engineer who specialized in designing titanium parts told me that the major aerospace companies had changed their policies on selling surplus titanium fasteners, and because of liability concerns would only sell them as scrap, with guarantees from the buyer that they would not be resold for use as fasteners.
FWIW, I had a set of cradle bolts and nuts made up in 6AL-4V titanium a few years ago by Mettec http://store.mettec.com/default.htm for a reasonable price. I was trying to get a race bike down to minimum weight at the time. For a street bike I'd probably go with stainless instead because of the cost difference.
I considered having ARP make up engine cradle fasteners in ARP 300, and packaging them as sets to sell under the Left Coast Racing label, but figured there wouldn't be enough Commando owners who would be willing to pay the higher cost to make it a worthwhile venture. That's the story of my life, too many ideas, not enough action. My hat's off to guys like Madass, comnoz, and others who put in the time and money to develop interesting new products for Commandos and actually bring them to market.
Ken
plain white bath soap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_(soap)
It was called out for use in a few aircraft Maintenance manuals I have used over the years.
Also milk of magnesia for hot threaded bits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_(soap)
It was called out for use in a few aircraft Maintenance manuals I have used over the years.
Also milk of magnesia for hot threaded bits.
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Ivory was one of the first store bought solid soaps with simple ingredients enough most can tolerate it. Its the smell of barracks and hi school showers and a lot of motels in America. Its what mothers washed out foul monthed youngsters with too, uuk. i use bar soap or old candles to rub on sliding door track to lube them and on screws driven in hard wood and in a sock to bop someone.
A good slice of bath bar soap in a sock at the foot of the bed helps settle restless leg syndrome for many very significantly. I never heard of this prior to Ozarks folks telling me it worked for them. I know the sources and fixes of restless legs but don't know what's up with the soap but if someone tries it let me know. The other common folk remedy in past was ATF or brake fluid or wd/40 put on painful arthritic joints and spine. I think that's the DMSO solvent which feels warming rubbed on. DMSO is famous race horse treatment externally but can be injected too, diluted. DMSO is bad juju on paint, if wet say over night, wiping is too late for the blisters than will eventually show.
BTW I tried the MoM on my mower header SS allen screws in old cast iron head and sure enough they broke free with similar torque as I left them and lost resistance in a few turns. An air leak rust blow out caused header and muffler to turn red and blow out the end cap so it got plenty hot tested.
A good slice of bath bar soap in a sock at the foot of the bed helps settle restless leg syndrome for many very significantly. I never heard of this prior to Ozarks folks telling me it worked for them. I know the sources and fixes of restless legs but don't know what's up with the soap but if someone tries it let me know. The other common folk remedy in past was ATF or brake fluid or wd/40 put on painful arthritic joints and spine. I think that's the DMSO solvent which feels warming rubbed on. DMSO is famous race horse treatment externally but can be injected too, diluted. DMSO is bad juju on paint, if wet say over night, wiping is too late for the blisters than will eventually show.
BTW I tried the MoM on my mower header SS allen screws in old cast iron head and sure enough they broke free with similar torque as I left them and lost resistance in a few turns. An air leak rust blow out caused header and muffler to turn red and blow out the end cap so it got plenty hot tested.
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