Oil Consumption-This might be your problem too!

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Voodooo said:
Congratulations you mentioned it again and again and again. Rings move. We all know this. Nobody is disputing that.
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Only not this time apparently if it was human error that placed the ring gaps in line and still in the same place 2500 miles later?

Yet more childish insults only proves you don't have anything constructive left to say.
 
L.A.B. said:
Only not this time apparently if it was human error that placed the ring gaps in line and still in the same place 2500 miles later?

Yet more childish insults only proves you don't have anything constructive left to say.
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There's a very high likelihood that someone that knew the answer and read this exchange wouldn't bother to post it. That's in part your fault. The loudest voice in the room isn't the smartest.

As a moderator you should actually consider what you are doing to improve the knowledge share of the group. I have recently bought a bike and been constructively helped by many of the people you're arguing with and the information they have shared.

If you have to have the last word you shouldn't be a moderator. Consider what actual constructive outcome anything you've added has.
 
Gojuu said:
There's a very high likelihood that someone that knew the answer and read this exchange wouldn't bother to post it. That's in part your fault. The loudest voice in the room isn't the smartest.
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I posted every scenario pages ago starting at factory fitment and why and on from there.

There is no real point of any engine builder posting including the finer points of ring gap aligned or not including the vertical space between them compression and oil scraper , ring land base ports etc etc.

I am having a big LOL to the power of 3 with a side of 'assHat regarding some of the playground replies. :D

Please remember the Internet is not real in the true sense of the unreal and without tangible emotion in the moment of typing, then sent into a void where folk have to figure that non emotion out for themselves. (Think)
In other words there is no slip of the tongue in the written word especially for you 5 words a minute folk.
 
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Gojuu said:
There's a very high likelihood that someone that knew the answer and read this exchange wouldn't bother to post it.
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I honestly doubt there is an answer.

Gojuu said:
That's in part your fault. The loudest voice in the room isn't the smartest.
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"In part" I would agree and point taken.

Gojuu said:
many of the people you're arguing with
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Disagreeing with...

Gojuu said:
If you have to have the last word you shouldn't be a moderator.
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I will bear that in mind although I doubt this will be the last word. Edit: As I thought!

Edit2: Gojuu: Thanks for sending the message report enquiring if I am a moderator (it does in fact say that under my avatar) the report, therefore, has been closed.
 
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Until the rings, ring grooves and scraper pack are checked its all assumption.
Debating why the horse escaped standing beside the still open gate, classic.
 
Voodooo said:
Lab
Look
Can you prove the rings were not installed wrong?
Can you prove the piston ring groves are not to tight for the rings?
Can you prove that there isn’t a burr on the ring grove?
Can you prove there isn’t enough carbon build up on the ring groves to prevent them from rotating?
Can you prove that the rings were not installed correctly and in fact scored the cylinder wall badly enough to cause the oil consumption around 2500 miles?
Can you prove that the human who installed the rings didn’t for example install the top ring at say 12 o’clock and the second ring at 1 o’clock and that they in fact rotated to where they are now?
Because that would in fact be the cause of human error installed rings.


You can’t prove any of the above questions.
But instead you want to say that there is no possible way it was anything to do with human error and that it’s only cause Is from ring rotation.

No where did I ever say rings don’t rotate.
But you love to keep it going by saying absolutely not caused by human error.

Tell me, was this human error or gasket shift?
This is from my 2017 Dominator naked with only 900 miles on it. Funny how I had oil pressure when I parked the bike for the winter, but come spring time on it’s first ride for the year I have no oil pressure. Because of gasket failure. Or what else?
Couldn’t possibly be a human at Nortons fault. I suppose the gasket tore itself while sandwiched between two pieces of aluminum.

I’m done here. I’m gonna throw myself off a cl
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This is off topic! It's going to start 6 more pages and ruin the rings go round and round babble

Please start a new topic so you can receive some good internet research on your own topic!! All the research done here is for my post!!

P.S. Global warming caused your issue....give me a few mins to find some articles to support that!
 
City Garage said:
You know this post was about what we found, and it turned into a back and forth over who can post what they found from the internet and not any real-world experience someone has had with THIS model of motorcycle except some dealer experience, etc. We actually work on these motorcycles; we have torn down, fixed, and we have had parts made, we have dug into the ECU issues, etc. Maybe not as much as Ollie has, but he and I have shared information back and forth with other members of this forum privately as I know they appreciate learning anything they can.

I base what I say on what we do every day. Our high level of experience plus the legendary status of expertise I have supporting the shop, as I have stated before, we have some of the best engine builders right here in my same shop complex so I tend to listen to people who actually do the work not just find videos or articles to support whatever position they want to stand on. I think qualifying your answer like that is feckless, just like when someone asks a motorcycle question and someone answer with a tractor answer. Not quite apples to apples, and in most cases, it just takes the topic in the wrong direction.

The indisputable FACT of this post seems to be lost on one or two people who seem to want to tear at people. This is why people are afraid to share things or in our case, if someone wants to muddy the waters over the original issue, why bother sharing at all.

Here is our official opinion on what we found. I say opinion, so we don't get taken to the woodshed for saying its a fact even though, you know through our vast experience and that of the people who work here and those who consult with us say they agree, we will just say opinion, so we don't get another doctoral thesis on internet research.

The motorcycle was eating oil(high oil consumption) with no visible smoke. 5 miles of semi-spirited riding was producing 1.5 ounces of oil in the airbox. Compression and leak down done.

Compression and other factors dictated that we take apart the top end.

Upon removing the top end, we found the rings as pictured. To be clear again BOTH ring sets were lined up as pictured. We didn't touch anything outside of placing a shop towel in the open case. I know the pictures arent full size, but you can clearly see the vertical rub on the piston, which others have mentioned, not to mention what might not be so clear is the pitting on the skirts

When we looked in the barrels, there were corresponding vertical scars where the rings were lined up. If you require a picture of that as well so I can prove my OPINION, then please let me know.

Our OPINION is that the rings were installed incorrectly ON BOTH SIDES, and that, coupled with the play of the crappy pistons, created a scar on the cylinder wall that didn't allow the rings to shift or rotate ON BOTH SIDES. Most likely due to immediate high RPM revving with minimal oiling that created the issue.

Anyone can make the argument for one cylinder but to both being aligned like we found is just ignorant and not looking at all the factors.
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That’s a good explanation and IMHO a good hypothesis as to the number of contributory causes to this issue.

I think that your cryptic initial post accidentally insinuated that the only cause was the incorrectly assembled ring gaps.

The subsequent arguments have been caused by the opposing facts of:
A) its statistically impossible that freely rotations rings would all align like that.
B) because rings do rotate, the rings wouldn’t stay like that even if assembled thus.

Both of the above opposing facts are true… so what you found is impossible !

So the only possible answer is that other facts are in play and there were actually two issues here:

1. the rings were incorrectly assembled at the factory.
AND
2. something happened to prevent the rings from rotating.

Your hypothesis presents some sound possibilities, others have suggested tight ring grooves, rings to big, gap too big, burrs on the rings, etc.

They‘re all possibilities and what’s definite is that one or more (or another) is in play.

This has to be the worst thread we’ve had in a long time. It’s sad when a group of like minded enthusiasts can’t discuss and debate without resorting to foul language and name calling as that doesn’t progress a debate AT ALL.

Anyway, FWIW and IMHO… I’d still fit those gapless rings to this sucker !
 
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The problem with this post is there is no definitive answer
Maybe if you had CCTV footage of that engine being assembled that might help
And basically that's what LAB is saying ,we don't actually know for sure so nothing can be stated as fact however unlikely
So this post could carry on forever if you gave a thousand monkeys a thousand engines to build and endless time I bet those rings "could" line up on that engine after 2500 miles !
Time to call it quits and get a beer out the fridge
 
Oh dear. Now I have to worry about not having gapless rings in any of my bikes....:-)
 
baz said:
The problem with this post is there is no definitive answer
Maybe if you had CCTV footage of that engine being assembled that might help
And basically that's what LAB is saying ,we don't actually know for sure so nothing can be stated as fact however unlikely
So this post could carry on forever if you gave a thousand monkeys a thousand engines to build and endless time I bet those rings "could" line up on that engine after 2500 miles !
Time to call it quits and get a beer out the fridge
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There are some some facts though. The engine had compression issues, was burning oil, had scars on the bores that lined up with the ring ends and the rings on both pistons lined up. Add this to the fact that people who have stripped many engines (myself included) have never seen rings lined up like this, plus well know build quality issues at the factory mean, in my view, the smoking gun is build issues at the factory.

The contentious part seems to be do the rings rotate...yes they do, but is it impossible for them to line up? Probably not. So lacking absolute evidence, like ‘here is a picture of them installed and here they are 2500 miles later’ type of thing, we are looking at probabilities. We can look at evidence for an against. We really don’t have much to go on, but one thing that sticks out is ‘has anyone seen or heard of any one cylinder that was known to have been properly assembled and, upon disassembly, found to have rings lined up like this. The answer seems to be no, so while not proof, would tend to support the build issues theory. Exactly what they are is conjecture. If there is evidence that this ‘ring gap alignment’ has happened in the past....that might throw a little (but not much) light on this.

So, a few facts, but we are into what’s is probable....it’s the best we can here.
 
I read a story once on the theory of evolution, where someone questioned if it was possible to look at the scattered balls on a pool table and from their positions determine their formation before they were struck...

Getting a sense of deja vu here..
 
Vernon240 said:
There are some some facts though. The engine had compression issues, was burning oil, had scars on the bores that lined up with the ring ends and the rings on both pistons lined up. Add this to the fact that people who have stripped many engines (myself included) have never seen rings lined up like this, plus well know build quality issues at the factory mean, in my view, the smoking gun is build issues at the factory.

The contentious part seems to be do the rings rotate...yes they do, but is it impossible for them to line up? Probably not. So lacking absolute evidence, like ‘here is a picture of them installed and here they are 2500 miles later’ type of thing, we are looking at probabilities. We can look at evidence for an against. We really don’t have much to go on, but one thing that sticks out is ‘has anyone seen or heard of any one cylinder that was known to have been properly assembled and, upon disassembly, found to have rings lined up like this. The answer seems to be no, so while not proof, would tend to support the build issues theory. Exactly what they are is conjecture. If there is evidence that this ‘ring gap alignment’ has happened in the past....that might throw a little (but not much) light on this.

So, a few facts, but we are into what’s is probable....it’s the best we can here.
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Personally I think it was assembled like that
But that's just my opinion
 
Nigel said "This has to be the worst thread we’ve had in a long time. It’s sad when a group of like minded enthusiasts can’t discuss and debate without resorting to foul language and name calling as that doesn’t progress a debate AT ALL."

Agreed. I don't like to see anyone here treated that way, especially our Moderator. He's a very moderate Moderator, so much so that Voodoo didn't even know that Les is the Norton Forum Moderator and has been for a very long time!
We've all watched him help countless Norton owners through various problems on the main forum.
You won't get L.A.B. to agree that 2+2= 7 though. Nor should he.

Glen
 
I read your post with great interest. Back in the late 70s I did quite a few T150 and T160 repairs. Most due to excessive oil consumption and smoking. On some of the bikes, upon inspection, we would find the ring gaps aligned. We chalked it up to poor assembly practices at a factory in turmoil and replaced the rings using the next size up and filing the ends to get the gap correct. We assumed that the standard rings lacked the necessary cylinder wall pressure. Then we noticed bikes that were returning with the same issue. One bike we knew was being used regulary. We took pains to have witnesses at the tear down verify that the rings were indeed aligned. We also had three witnesses at the cylinder fitting to verify that the rings were staggered correctly. We even marked the case with a stamp where it would go unnoticed. I can tell you we thought we were going mad. We waited. The machine came back with the same issue. There was our stamp. The rings had aligned. This time we fitted a three piece oil control ring and the machine never came back for that issue. We would not have believed it if we had not run the experiment and verified the result. I have no idea if this is what happened to your Norton. I can only say that this did in fact happen to a T150 Triumph on two cylinders. If I remember correctly these were the left side cylinders.
 
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