Oil Consumption-This might be your problem too!

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Rotation was simply mentioned and even if they had rotated to that point (besides the already stated incompetent assembly or a pi$$ed off person at the factory) it would be all but impossible to prove either way.
Is the bore round.
Have the rings been checked including rotated and light checked in the bore.
Have all the ring faces been examined under magnification.
Have the ring grooves been checked to determine if assembled staggered they did not stop at that location.

Is having all the end gaps inline going to make a major difference (Which by the photo's they are not) as in night and day, no
How about the varying squish bands if it is not poor lighting on one.
The first thing done would be the oil scraper ring pack checked.

I am willing to bet many are looking at the compression rings only with the gaps all facing the inlet.
Common sense would suggest even if rings rotated (which they can do) and the gaps were aligned on the compression rings at assembly, would they still be aligned in the exact same location after 2500 miles (unless the bike had been laboured at low RPM's) or rotate to the same location as a pair.
I doubt it, but I did win Division 1.
 
BritTwit said:
For the first batch of 961's that can to the US in December 2013, yes they did smoke on starting - when cold.
Once they were warmed up there was no perceptible sign of smoke, but I could smell oil in the exhaust.
The mechanic who fixed mine told me that the rings where too large (wrong size) for the pistons, that the end gaps were too big, and the end gaps were in line.
The factory told my dealer that the mishap was the result of a supplier error.
If that was true, it did not bode well for the state of Norton factory QA/QC.
Incorrect parts should never find their way into inventory.
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The Factory blames it on a supplier?
Yet the Factory still installed the incorrect gapped rings with the gaps lined up??
Who was doing the assembly on these, school childern???
 
Time Warp said:
Rotation was simply mentioned and even if they had rotated to that point (besides the already stated incompetent assembly or a pi$$ed off person at the factory) it would be all but impossible to prove either way.
Is the bore round.
Have the rings been checked including rotated and light checked in the bore.
Have all the ring faces been examined under magnification.
Have the ring grooves been checked to determine if assembled staggered they did not stop at that location.

Is having all the end gaps inline going to make a major difference (Which by the photo's they are not) as in night and day, no
How about the varying squish bands if it is not poor lighting on one.
The first thing done would be the oil scraper ring pack checked.

I am willing to bet many are looking at the compression rings only with the gaps all facing the inlet.
Common sense would suggest even if rings rotated (which they can do) and the gaps were aligned on the compression rings at assembly, would they still be aligned in the exact same location after 2500 miles (unless the bike had been laboured at low RPM's) or rotate to the same location as a pair.
I doubt it, but I did win Division 1.
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outside of the scar left in the bore from improper ring alignment the bores are to spec and the pistons while sloppy are fine. Cross hatching is perfect again outside of the scars.

We see a lot of 961's and have torn more down I imagine more than most shops since we have them shipped to us for service and repairs from various places. While I wish we had all the time in the day to look at rings under magnification and other ideas all the armchair quarterbacks have we are a service shop and can't explain everything we did or looked at. I simply posted something I thought was helpful for owners to look at if there was an issue not to have everyone try to prove their doctoral thesis on piston ring knowledge.

I guess I'm glad I didn't post a picture of the crappy Chinese lifters that came out to show the damage they had or give the part numbers of the replacements at the same time.
 
MichaelB said:
The Factory blames it on a supplier?
Yet the Factory still installed the incorrect gapped rings with the gaps lined up??
Who was doing the assembly on these, school childern???
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Actually, Norton prided themselves (or maybe it was just SG) on utilizing "apprentices" with little to no experience.
They were training the future Norton mechanics.
Quite admirable, no?
Anyway, where the hell was the supervision.
Training without supervision is s**t!
 
City Garage said:
guess I'm glad I didn't post a picture of the crappy Chinese lifters that came out to show the damage they had or give the part numbers of the replacements at the same time.
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Hello Again , I would be interested in this information . Especially the replacement lifters !
 
City Garage said:
We see a lot of 961's and have torn more down I imagine more than most shops since we have them shipped to us for service and repairs from various places. While I wish we had all the time in the day to look at rings under magnification and other ideas all the armchair quarterbacks have we are a service shop and can't explain everything we did or looked at.
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I strongly agree. Sometimes (quite often actually) in life we simply do not have the time or ability to nail the root cause. Instead we take a pragmatic approach to avoid / side step the issue, rather than solving it.

Which was my point about using total seal rings instead of re using the OEM ones. Subsequent posts have cast many other doubts on the OEM rings (size, gap, quality, etc). To nail the specifics of all of these hypotheses would be very involved. Hence, IMHO, for the relatively small extra cost involved, if this were my engine, I’d fit total seal rings and instantly avoid all of those potential OEM ring related issues.

Thus freeing up my worry energy for the next issue !
 
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Voodooo said:
Anyone who thinks that the rings on City Garages piston rotated in that position after engine assembly are delusional.

How could anyone not believe this is in fact a assembly error by a inexperienced installer.
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It's a well-known and proven fact that unpegged rings slowly rotate and that is the reason they are pegged on 2-stroke etc. pistons, therefore, it is extremely unlikely they were assembled as found after 2500 miles therefore I don't accept that to think so is at all "delusional".
 
Voodooo said:
You and the others that fail to believe this is a assembly issue are mistaken.
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In your opinion.

Voodooo said:
You also keep comparing a high reving 2 stroke to a pokey 4 stroke that’s rarely ever seen anything above 5000 rpm.
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Not all 2-strokes are high-revving.


Voodooo said:
I’ve assembled and disassembled many many engines from stock rebuilds to performance only in my life and have been a mechanic professionally for over 30 years. Never have I ever seen a ring stack line up after a tear down like City Garage’s 961 piston.
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Can you emphatically state that every ring you have seen was in its original assembled position, yes or no?


Voodooo said:
Your theory of ring rotation and comparing it to a 2 stroke is nonsense,
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It isn't nonsense nor is it a theory it is a fact confirmed by piston ring manufacturers.

1.6.11 PISTON RING MOVEMENTS

"RING ROTATION
In order to run in and seal perfectly, piston rings must be able
to turn in the ring grooves. The ring rotation is created on the
one hand by the honing structure (cross-hatch), as well as by
the piston rocking movement in the upper and lower piston
dead centre. Flatter honing angles cause less ring rotation and
steeper angles cause higher ring rotation rates. The ring
rotation is also dependent on the engine speed. 5 to 15
rotations per minute are realistic rotation figures – merely as an
indication of the quantity of ring rotations.

With two-stroke engines, the rings are secured against twisting.
This also prevents rebounding of the joint ends in the gas
channels. Two-stroke engines are mainly used in bicycles,
garden equipment and similar. The uneven wear on the rings
resulting from the prevented ring rotation, the possible coking
in the ring grooves and the reduced service life are accepted
here."

Voodooo said:
do you really believe that property installed rings will somehow magically line up as shown and meet in the middle?
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There could be a technical reason why it has occurred but knowing that rings do rotate then I'm certainly not convinced that's how they were fitted.
 
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It's the Chinese rings. They lined themselves up and did the damage!
Just kidding, I have no idea on this.
Common wisdom says the rings do rotate but it also says don't line them up on assembly, just in case they decide not to rotate!

Glen
 
Total Seal

www.totalseal.com/support-and-downloads

"Cross hatch angles can also vary depending on the application, These angles determine the critical ring rotation speed, generally a 45¡ã[°] cross hatch angle will do a very good job.…"


GAS PORTED RINGS

Total Seal® now offers a unique piston ring design for racers desiring gas-ported performance without gas-ported pistons.
www.totalseal.com www.totalseal.com

"SELF CLEANING​

Because the piston ring is always rotating, the gas ports in the ring are self cleaning, which results in longer lasting ring seal."
 
Story Time:

Right after I graduated college with my degree in electronics, my cousin and I were working on a car with a miss. My cousin's high school dropout. low IQ friend was helping. He said that he would go get a tool to see if a plug was not getting spark. He came back with a neon panel light with a wire connected to one lead and nothing to the other. I asked what he would do with that, and he said that he would wrap the wire around the plug wires one at a time and it would flash when the plug fired. I laughed and said it wouldn't work since there was nothing hooked to the other lead and therefore no circuit. I learned that day not to be so sure I knew everything about a subject! His "tool" worked perfectly.
 
Mine burned a lot of oil at first too. 2013 Sport. Found at less than 2000 miles. Fortunately, my dealership finally had that one guy that actually gave a damn. Changed the valves overs, the starter, honed and installed new rings, upgraded the clutch and put in a new tranny that I waited 7 months for. Then he got sacked for caring too much and Norton no paying their warranty bills. Sigh
I lose about 3 or 4 oz every 1500 miles now. Stays clean too. Tight as a drum. More on the tranny fluid.
 
Another apparently "delusional" person who thinks rings rotate after start-up.



From 7:40 for the impatient.
 
Voodooo said:
Nowhere did I say rings don’t rotate. I said that city garage rings are from assembly error.
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If you agree rings rotate then the gaps aren't going to be in the same place they were when assembled, therefore, how can it be an assembly error?

Voodooo said:
Tell me this also, if you honestly believe that his rings rotated the way shown in his picture, why didn’t he just continue to run it and allow them to rotate until they were no longer aligned.
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If you accept rings rotate then they are not going to be in the same position they were when fitted 2500 miles back, yes or no?
Voodooo said:
I don’t understand why you find it so hard to believe in human error or improper assembly?
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Once again as you now appear to accept that rings rotate then it stands to reason they aren't going to be where they were when assembled.
Rings either rotate (as they are known to do) in which case the human error/improper assembly argument completely falls apart, or they don't rotate so which is it as it can't be both?
 
Voodooo said:
That is a spark checker. You can do the same with a screwdriver and test light or a finger lol.
You can also check for cross arching in the dark and water spray bottle.
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No S! Sorry you don't get the point of the story.
 
Given: Unless something stops them, rings rotate

Scenarios:
1: Rings properly spaced when installed, unlikely but can align
2: Rings aligned when installed, should not stay aligned

Assumption: There are no more possible scenarios. What's that "D" word?

3: One ring had an undetected burr when installed and lightly scored the cylinder. As rings rotated, they found that score and were no longer able to rotate. This scenario is plausible whether properly or improperly spaced when installed.
4: The rings were simply not made correctly and whatever causes them to rotate did not work and when installed they were aligned.
5: There are probably many more scenarios!
 
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