OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance

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Stephen Hill said:
Can anyone explain why a 13 mm Brembo master cylinder works better than a 13 mm Lockheed master cylinder?
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A few possible reasons that I can think of that may affect performance:
1. I have heard that the sleeving conversion process does not always go well - solution for that is this: https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/sho...body-c-w-mirror-mount-13mm-bore-c-w-internals
2. Lever ratio is important - that is the length of the hand lever versus the distance between centerline of the M/C Piston and the pivot point
3. Length of the Lockheed M/C body - if you want to go with low rise bars, it limits the available clocking positions of the lever, as the end of the M/C can foul on the fork yokes.

All 3 of these were considerations for me, as was cost - so I went to the wreckers and bought a M/C from a 1990 Kawi 750 Ninja. Levers are readily available when/if they get broken...

My thoughts... really depends on your priorities... FWIW
 
Derek Wilson said:
A few possible reasons that I can think of that may affect performance:
1. I have heard that the sleeving conversion process does not always go well - solution for that is this: https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/sho...body-c-w-mirror-mount-13mm-bore-c-w-internals
2. Lever ratio is important - that is the length of the hand lever versus the distance between centerline of the M/C Piston and the pivot point
3. Length of the Lockheed M/C body - if you want to go with low rise bars, it limits the available clocking positions of the lever, as the end of the M/C can foul on the fork yokes.

My thoughts... really depends on your priorities... FWIW
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I was all set to go with the Brembo since it isn't significantly more than the AN 13mm MC. Now that you have pointed out that the new (not re-sleeved) AN 13mm MC is an improvement, I may go back with the AN MC for the stock appearance.

If the performance of the 2 different MCs is similar, I will opt for the AN MC.
 
I quite like this setup using the original caliper on an adapter which moves it out to suit a 13" disc.


OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance
 
Stephen Hill said:
Can anyone explain why a 13 mm Brembo master cylinder works better than a 13 mm Lockheed master cylinder?
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Is the CNW Brembo a 13mm? I don't know, never checked/cared but having considerable experience with both, the Brembo functions far better. As I said - like modern brakes. Not being a brake design engineer, I don't have the faintest idea of the internals/design that allow it to do so compared to the OEM.

FWIW there are some folks that believe that the OEM MC was intentionally designed to function just as it does...IOW, to NOT provide the level of stopping power that a MC like the Brembo does. Whether true or not, it's not like hydraulic master cylinders were new technology at the time. The parameters to provide whatever stopping power/feel were well understood. For whatever reason, Norton made the choice they made for how the brakes 'should' feel/function.
 
concours said:
More pressure on the leading edge of the pad, I believe. Read a good tech article by Kevin Cameron once.
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That last picture (Porsche 356) in the post by @ludwig (#25) would appear to show it doing that for the trailing edge - no?
The way I read it is the darker shaded area is where the cut-out is and the disc rotation is CCW.
OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance
 
Prod Racer set up with MC. I need to get a longer hose. This length worked better for Clip Ons. I think it keeps a nice classic OEM + look.


OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance
 
Stephen Hill said:
This group seems biased to big brake improvements, and there is no limit to where the advice will take you. Some of the more extreme front brake solutions look like they belong on a modern Japanese bike. IMHO.
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I worked on a guy's 76 T140V who loves upgrades. He has dual oversized floating rotors, Brembo calipers and master cylinder. With me on it, the bike can't wheelie - however, I accidentally stoppie'd it the first time I grabbed the brake like I was on a stock Norton - I did not like the experience! Fortunately, I let go and didn't go down.
 
What they originally whinged about on the J P S was if you stood on the brakes , the single disc twisted the forks . Racing pads and gorilla fist .
The object being outbraking the opposition , on a track with ripples and camber shifts to excaberate matters . The Twisting divergent from intended path .

OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance


Dual .
They didnt like the weight , so the next trick was smaller diameter dual discs .
Wonder if the hub is available . Dual lite weight discs on original type hub &
the norvil legs ( Think there is / was R H & L H to get calipers all aft .,
Would suit us traditionalists who think you dont alter things unless its an improvement in effeciancy .
Unfortunately there ends up nothing original left at the end of the day ,
so when you see a 1000 cc Norton Seeley leave a S S Duc. , you dont feel it proved anything .
As in If you started at the front and repled it with VF 750 bits , and kept going , youd end up with a VF 750
whereas a 750 Norton was what we thought we might be watching. Which sounded odd .
 
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OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance


Getting a bit off track , Er , was a picture dual page of this on its side & mick on his butt , skateing along in the I.o.M. in a book I had years back . Psychdelic pipes , man .

OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance
 
Same pilot so picture came up , strike while the irons hot .

No intention of digressing the thread . Just info from the race team trash from in the day .
Were multiple J P S Norton write ups in the Aus. Two Wheels mag . With pictures of
componentry from the race team workshops & development evaluations & summarys .

Be good to acumulate them all in a booklet . My copies are long gone . But sometimes the recalls spot on.
After all they held out against the riceburners for some time in europe .
Should have interegated Phil Read at the Barry Sheene classic thing in Sydney. As He drove those at Daytona and elsewhere .
His thoughts / Anaylisis on the handling , steering etc etc woulda been worth hearing .
 
robs ss said:
That last picture (Porsche 356) in the post by @ludwig (#25) would appear to show it doing that for the trailing edge - no?
The way I read it is the darker shaded area is where the cut-out is and the disc rotation is CCW.
View attachment 83211
Click to expand...
When we take the 20° template from Porsche, basic trigonometry tells us that the cutaway is over 140° :

OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance


A-B is the centre line of the caliper.

From a Mercedes manual , same thing:

OEM Front Brake Upgrades For Best Performance


The idea is to concentrate pressure on the trailing edge.
The fact that most 4 piston calipers have smaller leading edge pistons is based on the same principle.
It won't magically transform the brake, but it will help, especially under emergency braking.
 
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ludwig said:
When we take the 20° template from Porsche, basic trigonometry tells us that the cutaway is over 140° :

A-B is the centre line of the calliper.

From a Mercedes manual , same thing:

The idea is to concentrate pressure on the trailing edge.
The fact that most 4 piston callipers have smaller leading edge pistons is based on the same principle.
It won't magically transform the brake, but it will help, especially under emergency braking.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that ludwig - I appreciate your views
Cheers
Rob
 
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