Norton trouble

Fast Eddie said:
You really need to stop dreaming about that. I cannot imagine for one moment that the Bloors are even remotely interested in doing that, it makes no sense, their main competition would be themselves!

I was referring to the idea of a good old fashioned shed built special at such time as the 961 engine expires... shouldn’t have to wait too long before someone becomes ‘eligible’...;)
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Well, my dream is really a supercharged 961 Commando, but failing that, a Norton "Speed Twin" Commando 1200 assembled in a non Communist bamboo forest facility would be acceptable. The trademark would reside in British hands for possible sale to some future British startup interested in another suicidal attempt to restart the ill fated marque.

I have seen photos of a Thaiumph 1200 mill shoe horned into a Commando 961 frame already.
Cute indeed.
 
BritTwit said:
I have seen photos of a Thaiumph 1200 mill shoe horned into a Commando 961 frame already.
Cute indeed.
Click to expand...

Can you share? I’ve seen ones with the ‘old’ air cooled 900 lump but not the new one.

I will say though, having ridden a 1200 Thrux and a 961... I do believe the stock Thrux would still be the better bike to ride.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Can you share? I’ve seen ones with the ‘old’ air cooled 900 lump but not the new one.
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Yeah, the ones I have seen are also using the old 865cc air cooled Thrux motor.
Haven't seen a 1200 version.
The reason Triumph went to a SOHC design on the 1200 was because the 1200 DOHC prototype was considered too tall for the classic backbone frame.
They wanted to keep the chassis as compact as possible for best handling.

It may be that the 1200 motor can not be fitted in the 961 chassis without major frame modifications. Then there is fitment of fluid lines, radiator, etc. Maybe more trouble then it's worth. Especially if the finished product is not as attractive to the eye as the original Commando.

I love the forward canted Commando cylinders. It's a trademark to me.

Triumph's straight up cylinders, not as attractive.
I own a T100 Hinckley Triumph so I like the classic engine look, just like the Norton's forward canted cylinder better.

Fast Eddie said:
I will say though, having ridden a 1200 Thrux and a 961... I do believe the stock Thrux would still be the better bike to ride.
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I agree.
Also ergonomics on the Trumpet are better.
At least for me.
Steel tanks, etc.....
 
Fast Eddie said:
Can you share? I’ve seen ones with the ‘old’ air cooled 900 lump but not the new one.

I will say though, having ridden a 1200 Thrux and a 961... I do believe the stock Thrux would still be the better bike to ride.
Click to expand...

Have to disagree there. I've ridden 1200 Thruxton, 1200 Bonneville and 961 and although the Bonneville was the most comfortable, in my opinion the 961 was by far the most involving to ride (and more comfortable than the Thrux, my only complaint was that my knees didn't quite fit the 961 tank cutouts).
If you were going to transplant the old Triumph 865 engine I think the Scrambler would be a better choice than the Thrux because of its more characterful 270 deg crank.
 
alwaysal said:
Have to disagree there. I've ridden 1200 Thruxton, 1200 Bonneville and 961 and although the Bonneville was the most comfortable, in my opinion the 961 was by far the most involving to ride (and more comfortable than the Thrux, my only complaint was that my knees didn't quite fit the 961 tank cutouts).
If you were going to transplant the old Triumph 865 engine I think the Scrambler would be a better choice than the Thrux because of its more characterful 270 deg crank.
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In terms of ‘involving’ I 100% agree with you.

What I intended to convey was in terms of performance and handling.
 
alwaysal said:
Have to disagree there. I've ridden 1200 Thruxton, 1200 Bonneville and 961 and although the Bonneville was the most comfortable, in my opinion the 961 was by far the most involving to ride (and more comfortable than the Thrux, my only complaint was that my knees didn't quite fit the 961 tank cutouts).
If you were going to transplant the old Triumph 865 engine I think the Scrambler would be a better choice than the Thrux because of its more characterful 270 deg crank.
Click to expand...

For me the 1200 Bonnie has the perfect ergonomics but I like low bars for control.
Thrux seating position suites my hip/knee/ankle angle position better than the 961.
The 961 leaves me feeling a bit a awkward in that area.
I haven't ridden a Thrux 1200 any distance but my impression is it would be less fatiguing than the 961, for me anyway.
 
ZFD said:
Now if someone please explain to me why anybody should be interested in a pretty simple, air-cooled engine of basically pre-historic technical design for a motorcycle, be it Chinese, Indian, or Puertorican? I compare it to a modernized air-cooled Volkswagen original Beetle engine. What car manufacturer would be interested in that?

Kenny Dreer told me it was an evolution of the Commando engine, not a new design, and the original design for that dates back to 1948!

The real story behind that deal with the Chinese, if there was in fact a deal, not a staged photograph needed to pacify our Stu's creditors again for a while, was most definitely not for the 961 engine that nobody needs but for something else. It may well have been for the release of the morsels of IP Garner still had a claim on for the 650 engine.
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They could make thousands of the 961 Norton and sell them to the middle classes based on British heritige alone. Then roll out the 650's in all sorts of guises. Norton China could be big or Rather Norton MCC = Norton Motor cycles China
 
961 is a dinosaur, not even a particularly memorable one, kind of dinosaur only dinosaur geeks ever read about. Air cooled, push rod, nothing remarkable , flawed EFI implementation and some of the mechanical bits are far from sorted despite over a century of development! Who on earth would be interested in manufacturing more of them in the current and only ever going to get harder emissions environment. What are you paying for? If Norton can get Ricardo to design a V4 hyperbike engine in a relatively short space of time, why on earth would you pay anything for the 961? I mean it wasn't like Norton sold 10's of thousands of them despite having the Norton badge pinned on them and enough former Commando owners still alive to yearn for one!

I think many give Garner far to much credit for being a smart fraudster, he wasn't smart he got caught afterall. I think he was just a bit of a Dell boy - Brits will know what that means - the rest of you should do yourselves a favour and watch one of the best Brit comedies ever! So in other words a bit of a market trader (and not an especially good one), who through good fortune and circumstances ended up owning Norton. But with zero skills in the very different world of manufacturing, it was only ever going to end one way. He probably got intoxicated with the brand, the TT and a former teeth whitening assistant - the rest is history. I stayed at Priest house and had a long conversation one night in the bar with one of the staff which confirmed my Dell boy opinion of him. My visit to the factory left me confused as to how this company could possibly be making a dollar. But hey I already had my bike and no one at that stage appeared be getting royally ripped off.

How different is he to any number of minor fraudsters that are berated in forums for all sorts of flawed products I don't know. But can I give one bit of advice don't buy any of the following if you've had too much to drink....

1. Norton motorcycle.
Norton trouble


2. Toasters that can print an image.
Norton trouble


3. Craft beer brewery the size of a microwave oven.
Norton trouble


4. 10 second toothbrush.
Norton trouble


One out of four ain't bad I suppose! Yes, I'm guilty of all of the above and only ended up with the bike!

God, hope I don't regret this post in the morning, just finished a pretty disagreeable bottle of red this evening!

Norton trouble


Meanwhile poor Raphi is trapped somewhere in NZ at this very moment!
 
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It can't have been entirely disagreeable if you finished it, i guess you will know in the morning. :confused:
Hoping Raphi is stuck somewhere comfortable.
 
ntst8 said:
It can't have been entirely disagreeable if you finished it, i guess you will know in the morning. :confused:
Hoping Raphi is stuck somewhere comfortable.
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Went rancid and I had to pour it down the drain... Raphi seemed to be doing ok last time I heard from him. Maybe he"ll pop up here.
 
Was’nt the air cooled, push rod, parallel twin the whole point? Was’nt a true retro based on original technology the aim? Were’nt we looking for that visceral experience afforded by said technology, reminding us of days when British bikes and in particular Norton ruled the roads (and the track)? If you wanted a feu-retro with a radiator disguised as an oil cooler and an EFI system disguised as an Amal carb then there is always a Thaiumph.

When did some on this forum lose sight of what an awesome bike the Norton Commando 961 is (once sorted). I’ve been riding bikes for 40 years and have never been without one for that period. I have never enjoyed, nor had more pride of ownership in any bike in all of those years. Let’s not let anti-Garner sentiment taint ownership of the 961. I ride mine with pride lads. Don’t know about you?
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Was’nt the air cooled, push rod, parallel twin the whole point? Was’nt a true retro based on original technology the aim? Were’nt we looking for that visceral experience afforded by said technology, reminding us of days when British bikes and in particular Norton ruled the roads (and the track)? If you wanted a feu-retro with a radiator disguised as an oil cooler and an EFI system disguised as an Amal carb then there is always a Thaiumph.

When did some on this forum lose sight of what an awesome bike the Norton Commando 961 is (once sorted). I’ve been riding bikes for 40 years and have never been without one for that period. I have never enjoyed, nor had more pride of ownership in any bike in all of those years. Let’s not let anti-Garner sentiment taint ownership of the 961. I ride mine with pride lads. Don’t know about you?
Click to expand...
Well said, glad someone has put my thoughts into words, I've written and scrubbed a few comments I wish I'd posted. Been a Biker for 50 years now myself, umpteen bikes owned, worked on and loved but my 961 is special, old school, new systems. Bought for that reason and glad I did, can't wait for warmer weather and freedom of movement.
 
I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you. The modern bike has become too electronic and too expensive. When things go wrong with these unnecessary additions, you end up chasing your own tail trying to find the fault unless you also have access to engine diagnosis equipment. Ask how much it would cost you to replace a ECU if that component fails. Older bikes and cars work just fine without one.
 
Bernhard said:
I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you. The modern bike has become too electronic and too expensive. When things go wrong with these unnecessary additions, you end up chasing your own tail trying to find the fault unless you also have access to engine diagnosis equipment. Ask how much it would cost you to replace a ECU if that component fails. Older bikes and cars work just fine without one.
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Can we just accept the 961 for what it is.
It’s not an everyday bike,use it for high days and holidays.
For a bit of showing off & being proud to ride something English.
Mine is really comfortable and have done big miles in a day two up with camping gear, obviously better without the gear.
It is more than capable.
Possibly Dominator riders should have had a test ride to judge the comfort before buying,
I wanted a Ducati Paul Smart replica but a test confirmed it is the most uncomfortable bike in the universe!
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Was’nt the air cooled, push rod, parallel twin the whole point? Was'nt a true retro based on original technology the aim?
Click to expand...

It was the whole point to Kenny Dreer, not SG, not the buying public, not even Norton aficionados. Just look at the interest the V4 spawned, while the 961 was greeted with yawning. Look, if Kenny Dreer wanted to create an incarnation of the Commando reflecting 1965's technology, that's fine, but why mix it with a chassis reflecting year 2000 technology? What he (and SG) created was a mongrel. A biblical side view, one of Jesus parabels come to mind: You don't pour new wine into old wineskins; the skin will tear and the good wine is lost. You pour it into new wineskins.
And so it is here. Mixing old and new comes to nothing, except maybe a tribute to Kenny Dreer's vision. A vision very few shared, save for some enthusiasts.

Another observation: Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat the same mistakes, and fail doing so. When Dennis Poore axed the P10/Z26 project, he looked around seeking cheap solutions and asked: What have we got? He spotted this 19 year old engine design which hadn't evolved one bit since incarnation. Let's take that and give it a face-lift by putting it into an upgraded chassis. And so they did, it sold, but never could compete with the japanese, and NV never made a noteworthy profit, quite the opposite from what I've read. Now, what did SG do? He also looked around and asked, what have we got to produce? He then grabbed the easiest project he could hit upon, Kenny's under-engineered prototype of his vision. Without further thought, manufacturing knowledge or a market research (AFAIK), SG created this mongrel and dreamed of big sales and quick profits. It was not to be, because history did repeat itself. The new Norton outfit fared even worse than NV. Even though engineering resources were rare, NV had manufacturing skills and a sales organisation at least. The only area were SG excels is will power. Unfortunately you need more than will power to create a successful motorcycle.

-Knut
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Was’nt the air cooled, push rod, parallel twin the whole point? Was’nt a true retro based on original technology the aim? Were’nt we looking for that visceral experience afforded by said technology, reminding us of days when British bikes and in particular Norton ruled the roads (and the track)? If you wanted a feu-retro with a radiator disguised as an oil cooler and an EFI system disguised as an Amal carb then there is always a Thaiumph.

When did some on this forum lose sight of what an awesome bike the Norton Commando 961 is (once sorted). I’ve been riding bikes for 40 years and have never been without one for that period. I have never enjoyed, nor had more pride of ownership in any bike in all of those years. Let’s not let anti-Garner sentiment taint ownership of the 961. I ride mine with pride lads. Don’t know about you?
Click to expand...

I think most folk who have owned one, or still do, would agree whole heartedly with you Stephen. I certainly do.

The comments on here have been regarding the likelihood of the Chinese taking up the 961 production. In that context, the 961 is too original old skool to sell in the numbers usually expected and required by big Chinese companies.

The 961 occupied a very small slice of quite a small niche. As is evident by the low numbers sold by Norton hitherto.

Its very difficult to imagine a Chinese outfit investing and tooling up to supply such a niche.
 
Royal Enfield production capacity in India is claimed as 950,000 per year.
Is there room in the market for a Chinese version without the long history?
 

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