norton lockheed caliper story history

Madnorton said:

....... it was argued that it needed a starter motor, the money men refused, the bike did not get built and some years later the SR500 appears.

............

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My SR500 engine has no electric start, they never did....in fact in my race bike it has no kickstart either.....but with the compression it has you wouldn't want to kick it really.....

What the SR500 design does have is a really good kickstart supported by both a decompression lever and a piston position indicator.....with a standard one you line it up and kick through.....and with it's Mikuni carb....it starts!

Fast Eddie said:

Bean counters often get a bad rep, and I’m no fan either…

But their job is to count beans… if there are NO beans, well that’s someone else’s fault.

In other words, IMHO the reason for lack of investment was because of lack of money… it’s the reason for lack of money that’s the issue… especially after decades of global dominance, and a very profitable war (especially for BSA)… so exactly where did all the money go ??

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Lady Docker......

Norton glory ~ 21:54

I worked at the Banbury service department of AP for seven years prior to emigrating, and my good friend, Ray Bailey was manager of all service requirements for the Lockheed motorcycle brake equipment.
The first race motorcycle to be fitted with a disc brake was built by South African Pat Hewartson sometime before when I first met him in 1963. He had some assistance from Rhodesian Colin Lister, and following initial race tests, Lister approached AP to ask them to make brake disc sets for him.
About the same time, the Rickman brothers asked AP for help in manufacturing a disc brake for their Rickman Monard, and when completed, this machine in the hands of Bill Ivy, scored the first disc braked machine win in the UK. The caliper for this project was based on the Mini car item, and was in cast iron. AP service engineer Mick Vaughan was in charge of initial setup, and also later to oversee the initial Norton installation and tests.
AP had a request from Norton to make a disc brake system, with Norton's Bob Trigg liaising with the AP design team ,under Peter Crawford, to make a lightweight aluminium caliper, but with round friction pads. this latter at the specific request of Trigg. The preferred pad material was Mintex M64, but a high performance material M108 was also available.
A later complete fork and caliper assembly was Norton's own design, but soon showed problems with heat being exchanged between caliper and fork leg.
From the start there were plenty of issues with the Lockheed master cylinder, which was never satisfactorily resolved during my time with AP.
The above is as told to me by my friend Ray Bailey, and as best I can remember, but if I am in error in any of the detail I will be pleased to accept a correction

Madnorton said:

There are some interesting ideas above but be realistic - when was Norton solvent as company, I guess no time since the early 50's - they were always skint, one takeover by a less skint company to another was the way back then. The British motorcycle industry had the ideas, if anything the Japanese just picked up where the British bean counters told the designers to go do one, some nice bikes that didn't get made and the Japs monopolised the British error. Remember that a 500 single was produced by NVT in the 70's it was argued that it needed a starter motor, the money men refused, the bike did not get built and some years later the SR500 appears.

The standard Norton Lockheed caliper is a powerful caliper compared to the 2696, but the size of the pad may prevent its use on a larger radius where it would need to disperse more heat.

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never heard of "Remember that a 500 single was produced by NVT in the 70's it was argued that it needed a starter motor, the money men refused, the bike did not get built"

fishing around, prob this

74ok said:

never heard of "Remember that a 500 single was produced by NVT in the 70's it was argued that it needed a starter motor, the money men refused, the bike did not get built"

fishing around, prob this

1975 Norton 500 Wulf SPX - Google Search

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No, possibly the isolastic framed B50 lump...

Another perspective on the dinky toy
"one of the most successful motorcycles ever produced in Britain"

The Commando Miracle | The Vintagent

Norton's Commando was designed and prototyped in 11 months, and became an icon

thevintagent.com

Hastily sprayed a shotgun silver metalflake, and with just 1000 test miles under its belt, the prototype Commando made it to Norton’s stand at the Earls Court Show in September. Years later, Bob Trigg reflected on those manic eleven weeks, “I worked all the hours God sent and lost over a stone in weight, but we did it. We all worked on it as a good team, and we couldn’t have done it any other way.”

The Commando was a miracle of expedience, as it became a motorcycle for the ages, but it could only have been built under the direst of financial and time constraints. It won ‘Motorcycle of the Year’ for five years running in Motorcycle News reader’s polls, and even hardened journalists were amazed how good the Commando turned out to be. There should be a lesson for future designers in the story, but perhaps the lesson is one of management: Dennis Poore applied the pressure, and Norton’s development team produced the diamond.

74ok said:

never heard of "Remember that a 500 single was produced by NVT in the 70's it was argued that it needed a starter motor, the money men refused, the bike did not get built"

fishing around, prob this

1975 Norton 500 Wulf SPX - Google Search

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Nope...the Wulf was a 500cc stepped piston 2 stroke twin.....

Of couse the British press , was telling everone ( after their liquid lunches & expense account meals )

that Single Cylider and twin cylinder machines were OBSOLETE . Along with all the British Designs .

What was needed , was SOPHISTICATION . Like Warning Lights , dash mounted gear indicators ,
sidestand lights ( A Ducati First ) and electric staters . THIS was the FUTURE . N
Not Archaic British Rubbish dateing back before the war , some to Noah's time .

============================================================================


The Brother raced one of these ringle ding dingles . At least the others did . With a Calaforeyeaye D G Head & pipe , his sounded more
Sophisticated ! .
Mightve been before that , or a early meet at dairy flat . nz. moto cross track , there was a clerical type in buisness shirt & glasses ,
with a C.C.M. 608 .
The ' Top Straight ' was levelish , undulateing clay with bumps & humps . Toward the end of the day He had found the straightest smoothest line ,
and timed it so he came onto it as third place came past , with first miles ahead .
This Time ,
He GASED IT .
Came up on the outside of Neumero Uno's tail into the R Hand corner at the end . Not bad for a scrawney weedy guy .

Mustve Hit near 80 to their 60 odd . But POUNCED out of the ' gate ' with twice their displacement & 4 stroke tourque from 1/3rd revs .
But looked upon as a oddity & irelevant by the rice burner el cheapo riders .

SO , The ISO B - 50 Norton Oddity was doomed by not having a little window to show crank p[osn. for ' START ' like a Yamahaha or a C V Carb
so half wits could ride it . ( Told the B-50 is the same bore & stroke so a ' Unit Goldstar ' , lighter'n faster'n thewm . Maybe )


Er Yuk . sound terrble .

Now , With a Six Speed Gearbox , and a Coffman Starter . . . one've these'd old its own. Today . Lettalone a C.C.M. 608 with a six speed trans .



You could even fit a Lockheed Brake !
#

One "what if" not previously mentioned was the reason for the demise of drum brakes; In racing, excess heat from large, 4ls stoppers caused spokes to loosen, with predictable results. By the time cast wheels came out, drums were hopelessly out of fashion. and discs had developed stopping power beyond any previous drum. I think Laverda had some nice, cast-in drum brakes in their "mag" wheels. Imagine a well-sorted 4ls drum cast into a lightweight alloy wheel. Disc brakes may have faded into history as another dead end.

Yep , back in the day they were forever braking the Japanese 4LS racing brakes . Maybe overtightening & distortion through heat . And we just thought it was shoddy metal
To the point I was shocked anybody would use one these days , let alone on a pommy bike .

' Imagine a well-sorted 4ls drum cast into a lightweight alloy wheel. '

Best I can do , you can see the intregal brake drum to the drivers right of the cigarette .
The brake drums were cast into the wheel . Simplify and add lightness .



Seems the bloke was pretty cunning . Thats the problem with these modern cars , theres nowhere to put the crank handle ! .

' We conclude this brief technical examination of the Type 53 with mentioning the light alloy wheels, similar to (but not identical) to those of the T50. These are characterized by the special fins, similar to turbine blades, which cool down the brakes, integrated in the wheels. '


Bugatti T53 . 4 W D . https://www.bugattirevue.com/revue9/t53.htm

A 200 mph drum brake , good for 500 miles between overhauls .

SteveA said:

(the below MickW was corrected to "was referring to Mick Duckworth's book")....

Mick Woollet's history of the Commando just refers to the disc brake as a Norton Lockheed collaboration, referring to the whole brake system rather than the caliper itself, and naming John Favill as the NV engineer involved.

For folks unfamiliar with John Favill & i only found the name very recently

He has a facebook page but it has been inactive a few yrs

Bittoffa tangent sagain , but w t h . tis a LOCKEED CALIPER . Someone might wanna grabbit . two unnered U.S.



Dunno if thats ALLOY or IRON . sobee warrie .

Well one thing I DID notice was that both sides have bleeders.
A good idea!

Onder said:

Well one thing I DID notice was that both sides have bleeders.
A good idea!

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And....they are for the rear of an Escort Group 4 rally car, have 11mm bolt holes not 10mm, need a min 10mm thick disc, are 125mm wide not 85 and weight 1.8kg, not 0.9kg....but go ahead....

Bugger .

Further Confusion . The LYSTER set up , used on the early dunstall's . Predeceeding the intregal caliper in leg trick .



funny looking Norton ! ?

Danno said:

One "what if" not previously mentioned was the reason for the demise of drum brakes; In racing, excess heat from large, 4ls stoppers caused spokes to loosen, with predictable results. By the time cast wheels came out, drums were hopelessly out of fashion. and discs had developed stopping power beyond any previous drum. I think Laverda had some nice, cast-in drum brakes in their "mag" wheels. Imagine a well-sorted 4ls drum cast into a lightweight alloy wheel. Disc brakes may have faded into history as another dead end.

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I was told that Racers really embraced discs, because they were reliable and consistent, whereas with drums, you didn’t know how much braking your would have left at the end of the straight on the third lap. The big 4 Ls drums were buggers to set up as well…….. discs must have been so much cheaper to make And once th manufacturers had sorted out the proper ratioos between master and slave cylinders they worked very well. It’s interesting that all the early 70 s brake manufacturers got this wrong.