norton lockheed caliper story history

74ok said:
www.rideapart.com

Motorcycle History: Brakes

There are several pinnacles in the history of motorcycle braking systems, most notably the adoption of disc brakes in the '60s then ABS in the late '80s.
www.rideapart.com www.rideapart.com

en.wikipedia.org

Motorcycle braking systems - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


www.accessnorton.com

71 Commando with Disc Brake???

Hi, i am looking at a commando which was first registered in 1972 but on the VIN Plate is says it was manufactured in Oktober 1971. She has an original Lockheed Disc Brake (750 Style with caliper on the right) on the front. Am i right in thinking, that it has been "upgraded" and originally...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com

Click to expand...
First article has inaccuracies, referring to the Honda CB750 Launch in Tokyo in 1966, where elsewhere it is stated as 1968, which ties with the bike being available from 1969.

That's the problem with both journalism and the internet...what to believe? Get one thing clearly wrong, and the reader doubts everything!
 
However, we have digressed to a discussion of disc brakes in general.

Mick Duckworth's history of the Commando just refers to the disc brake as a Norton Lockheed collaboration, referring to the whole brake system rather than the caliper itself, and naming John Favill as the NV engineer involved.

So I suspect the details of why they did it like that, particularly when the PR style brake mounting leg was already available, are lost to time.

Since the mudguard mounting is an issue with many of the current alternatives used, I suspect that would have mitigated against the larger caliper in a production solution.
 
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Norton were very forward thinking - NOT. - Is it possible to buy a left hand fork leg with the calliper for the second disc ? I think they were making Dinky Toys. - WRONG MINDSET AS USUAL ! - Situationalist management leads to crisis management. Norton went bust because the Japanese were better thinkers. The Commando is a good motorcycle, but it cannot be what it was never going to be. Sales of commuter bikes are important, but are not the be-all and end-all. The Commando was derived from the Attas and 650SS which were basically sports bikes - different market sector.
 
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The CR750 Honda was the racing version of the CB750. Many Japanese bikes had a race kit which you could buy to upgrade your bike. Triumph even had a race kit for their T100 in 1953. It is not rocket science - just a bit smart. Norton had Peter Williams, but obviously did not know how to use him to best advantage. Most people who ride motorcycles are enthusiasts, and need to be catered for..
Many 1960s British bikes are a cross between a motorscooter and a motorcycle.
 
74ok said:
why?
Click to expand...



It was cheap to make, a basic casting that needed minimal machining and looked fairly compact but had circular pads like many other mass production calipers.
A simple jig for a single boring operation to do both piston bores and a thread at the top.
Is is a good caliper by design, not really.


What is more relevant if you rode motorcycles in the 1970's.
It was a dual opposed piston caliper when anything on a Japanese production bike had a single piston and sliding carrier.
The exception might be the Scarab twin piston caliper (which had their problems) on the 1971 and up Ducati 750 GT (and later Brembo 08's across the range) which also had Lockheed calipers in the mix on the 750 Sport.

They all that I remember had moderate hydraulic ratio's on the wooden brake scale.
The exception for me was my Kawasaki 750 H2B which had twin front calipers from nearly new, the second caliper was a form of race kit part (afaik) with the lugs already in place on the right hand slider. The kit consisting of the caliper, second SS rotor, hoses etc and a larger bore master cylinder (5/8" iirc)

Bikes like the Production Racer (a tarted up Commando) being made in such small numbers hardly made an impact and not a road biased machine.
A racing alloy AP type caliper would have cost more to make than the Commando inspired item and a fortune I bet at fitted cost.

A good deal of the British stuff seems to have automotive thinking where the competition (Japan) were more clean paper designs for better or worse at the time.

I am in no doubt there was never a Honda bought and stripped down by any of the British factories, arrogance for want of a kinder word prevailed until the stern slipped under.

At the end of the day Commando's are still one of the best bikes in all respects from the 1970's period.
 
acotrel said:
Norton were very forward thinking - NOT. - Is it possible to buy a left hand fork leg with the calliper for the second disc ? I think they were making Dinky Toys. - WRONG MINDSET AS USUAL ! - Situationalist management leads to crisis management. Norton went bust because the Japanese were better thinkers. The Commando is a good motorcycle, but it cannot be what it was never going to be. Sales of commuter bikes are important, but are not the be-all and end-all. The Commando was derived from the Attas and 650SS which were basically sports bikes - different market sector.
Click to expand...
They came up with a product that sold for 10 years. If they were dinky toys, you wouldn't see parts support 45 yrs after the end of production, on a level that can only be dreamed of, by most others.

Dinky toys are intended to be trashed & not supported to thrive on.

I'd call it at the very least, spectacular.
 
Time Warp said:
It was cheap to make, a basic casting that needed minimal machining and looked fairly compact but had circular pads like many other mass production calipers.
A simple jig for a single boring operation to do both piston bores and a thread at the top.
Is is a good caliper by design, not really.


What is more relevant if you rode motorcycles in the 1970's.
It was a dual opposed piston caliper when anything on a Japanese production bike had a single piston and sliding carrier.
The exception might be the Scarab twin piston caliper (which had their problems) on the 1971 and up Ducati 750 GT (and later Brembo 08's across the range) which also had Lockheed calipers in the mix on the 750 Sport.

They all that I remember had moderate hydraulic ratio's on the wooden brake scale.
The exception for me was my Kawasaki 750 H2B which had twin front calipers from nearly new, the second caliper was a form of race kit part (afaik) with the lugs already in place on the right hand slider. The kit consisting of the caliper, second SS rotor, hoses etc and a larger bore master cylinder (5/8" iirc)

Bikes like the Production Racer (a tarted up Commando) being made in such small numbers hardly made an impact and not a road biased machine.
A racing alloy AP type caliper would have cost more to make than the Commando inspired item and a fortune I bet at fitted cost.

A good deal of the British stuff seems to have automotive thinking where the competition (Japan) were more clean paper designs for better or worse at the time.

I am in no doubt there was never a Honda bought and stripped down by any of the British factories, arrogance for want of a kinder word prevailed until the stern slipped under.

At the end of the day Commando's are still one of the best bikes in all respects from the 1970's period.
Click to expand...
I have the AP calliper on my mk3. It is ok, it sort of stops with a hefty pull, but doesn't communicate anything back to the lever. The stock Lockhead rear though, feels pretty decent.
 
Specifics on that 'better' MC pls? Even the dog Ieg lever? think the MC sizing wasn't quite right was the biggest part here, that makes a big diff.

Even the lever change wasn't something that i was fully aware of here enabling a substantial change. Sort of became aware of it recently more thru fiddling with bicycling, where major braking changes came into the picture.

Disc brakes, first cable then hydraulic, even the lever action from the original cable braking changed from side pull to center pull etc. That alone gets into using the right lever for the braking setup u may have.


this 'adjustable' feature sounds handy
kzrider.com

Replacement Adjustable Or Dog Leg Front Brake Lever

Replacement Adjustable Or Dog Leg Front Brake Lever
kzrider.com kzrider.com
 
74ok said:
Specifics on that 'better' MC pls? Even the dog Ieg lever? think the MC sizing wasn't quite right was the biggest part here, that makes a big diff.

Even the lever change wasn't something that i was fully aware of here enabling a substantial change. Sort of became aware of it recently more thru fiddling with bicycling, where major braking changes came into the picture.

Disc brakes, first cable then hydraulic, even the lever action from the original cable braking changed from side pull to center pull etc. That alone gets into using the right lever for the braking setup u may have.


this 'adjustable' feature sounds handy
kzrider.com

Replacement Adjustable Or Dog Leg Front Brake Lever

Replacement Adjustable Or Dog Leg Front Brake Lever
kzrider.com kzrider.com
Click to expand...
For better read 13 mm bore.....AP Lockheed never made a master cylinder to suit their 41 or 44 mm dual piston calipers in a single caliper application! I have never understood why, but these brakes were wooden in the '70s and will be now unless you fit a smaller bore master cylinder!

Your choice is originality of being able to stop and have sufficient feel to control the brake in all situations, you can't have both!

As for dogs legs...optional, I use a Brembo 12.7 mm using the standard Brembo lever with my AP Lockheed CP2696 caliper....good combination
 
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Fast Eddie said:
That’s due to the master cylinder and lever. A better master cylinder with a dog leg lever will provide much improved feel.
Click to expand...
It is 13mm (RGM in the paperwork, before my ownership), braided lines, fresh fluid, firm lever. So, oak rather than pine :)
 
acotrel said:
Norton were very forward thinking - NOT. - Is it possible to buy a left hand fork leg with the calliper for the second disc ? I think they were making Dinky Toys. - WRONG MINDSET AS USUAL
Click to expand...
Dont know about you, but a single AP2696 and Brembo 1/2" master cylinder provides all the braking I need. Ralph (Storm42) had twin disks on his bloody quick racing Seeley and ended up removing one, declaring it to be overkill.
I have a Ducati bevel with twin AP 2696 and a 1/2" AP caliper, it brakes very well, but I've never felt the need for twin disks on the Commando.
 
Time Warp said:
It was cheap to make, a basic casting that needed minimal machining and looked fairly compact but had circular pads like many other mass production calipers.
A simple jig for a single boring operation to do both piston bores and a thread at the top.
Is is a good caliper by design, not really.


What is more relevant if you rode motorcycles in the 1970's.
It was a dual opposed piston caliper when anything on a Japanese production bike had a single piston and sliding carrier.
The exception might be the Scarab twin piston caliper (which had their problems) on the 1971 and up Ducati 750 GT (and later Brembo 08's across the range) which also had Lockheed calipers in the mix on the 750 Sport.

They all that I remember had moderate hydraulic ratio's on the wooden brake scale.
The exception for me was my Kawasaki 750 H2B which had twin front calipers from nearly new, the second caliper was a form of race kit part (afaik) with the lugs already in place on the right hand slider. The kit consisting of the caliper, second SS rotor, hoses etc and a larger bore master cylinder (5/8" iirc)

Bikes like the Production Racer (a tarted up Commando) being made in such small numbers hardly made an impact and not a road biased machine.
A racing alloy AP type caliper would have cost more to make than the Commando inspired item and a fortune I bet at fitted cost.

A good deal of the British stuff seems to have automotive thinking where the competition (Japan) were more clean paper designs for better or worse at the time.

I am in no doubt there was never a Honda bought and stripped down by any of the British factories, arrogance for want of a kinder word prevailed until the stern slipped under.

At the end of the day Commando's are still one of the best bikes in all respects from the 1970's period.
Click to expand...
I remember reading something about Doug Hele saying that BSA/Triumph bought a Honda 500/4 to evaluate. They quickly realised that they didn't have the machine tools to produce anything as advanced.

Martyn.
 
There are some interesting ideas above but be realistic - when was Norton solvent as company, I guess no time since the early 50's - they were always skint, one takeover by a less skint company to another was the way back then. The British motorcycle industry had the ideas, if anything the Japanese just picked up where the British bean counters told the designers to go do one, some nice bikes that didn't get made and the Japs monopolised the British error. Remember that a 500 single was produced by NVT in the 70's it was argued that it needed a starter motor, the money men refused, the bike did not get built and some years later the SR500 appears.

The standard Norton Lockheed caliper is a powerful caliper compared to the 2696, but the size of the pad may prevent its use on a larger radius where it would need to disperse more heat.
 
Matchless said:
I remember reading something about Doug Hele saying that BSA/Triumph bought a Honda 500/4 to evaluate. They quickly realised that they didn't have the machine tools to produce anything as advanced.

Martyn.
Click to expand...
I think I read they took it apart and were looking at the horizontal split cases and realized they couldn't match that level of precision?
 
baz said:
I think I read they took it apart and were looking at the horizontal split cases and realized they couldn't match that level of precision?
Click to expand...
Unable to match level of precision and not having the machine tools are just 2 ways of saying the same thing, no money to invest in more modern and capable machinery.
 
Bean counters often get a bad rep, and I’m no fan either…

But their job is to count beans… if there are NO beans, well that’s someone else’s fault.

In other words, IMHO the reason for lack of investment was because of lack of money… it’s the reason for lack of money that’s the issue… especially after decades of global dominance, and a very profitable war (especially for BSA)… so exactly where did all the money go ??
 
don't ask the woke..


Norton bigwig (Mr Weeks ?} comes in ~ 09:45

part 2 the riders ~ 24:32 (blame the kids & gangs)



BSA demise. Is this what went wrong with the British motorcycle industry in general. The Japanese invasion came and no one took them serious. How wrong they were ! Not a good sign when you see little Honda's parked outside the factory gates either !
 
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