norton lockheed caliper story history

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Haven't come across any info around the norton lockheed caliper story/history, how it came about? who was involved? only norton? why? etc...

triumph ended up with lockheed something else? lockheed greeves copy? Lockheed and Grimeca Calipers?

Girling Alloy CP2696 Type Brake Caliper - Triumph/BSA/Norton Disc Brake Models?








anything to do with?
 
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YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HUMANITY WASNT LONG OUT OF THE STONE AGE , BACK THEN .


this was regarded as hot shit ,, so configuration is not disimilar .

To make a point , the GIRLING Ford Calipers , Earlier are heavier .

These weigh a ton, but DONT FLEX .
norton lockheed caliper story history


norton lockheed caliper story history


This is the same , GT / Lotus etc , closer bolt spacing . a nudge lighter .Pre 71ish

Theyre BOTH P-16 lockeed . the Later ' M-16 ' metric bolt LIGHTER Mk III Cortina one is LIGHTER .

A FLEXES . Thus if your one of the great late brakers , The PADS WEAR WEDGED !

Moral . Big Chunky bridges dont flex .

YOUD THINK SOMEONE"D DO A RANGE OF PAD SPECS , for The NORTON . Or cut down others to suit . For decent Pads !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I just picked up a stock Triumph T150v caliper from the shelf. My Lord! It is HEAVY! But back then, on the bike, it seemed like
the best brake imaginable. Weight back then was something only racers really did much about. At least Norton used alloy.
 
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2 points here - everything flexes, it's just a question of how much flex you will tolerate in your design. For example, choosing the cross section profile to give the most efficient use of the material will go a long way to solving this type of problem.
And of course, cast iron is always heavier than aluminum :cool:
 
Haven't come across any info around the norton lockheed caliper story/history, how it came about? who was involved? only norton? why? etc...

triumph ended up with lockheed something else? lockheed greeves copy? Lockheed and Grimeca Calipers?

Girling Alloy CP2696 Type Brake Caliper - Triumph/BSA/Norton Disc Brake Models?








anything to do with?

Yes, AP racing is a remnant of what was AP Lockheed and supplies a range of former AP Lockheed race parts. The contemporary race caliper to the Norton Lockheed road caliper was the CP2195 '3 rib' caliper. This caliper was used on the PR versions of the Commando, prior to the standard road bike getting a disc brake..

I had two CP2195s supplied with my Rickman chassis in 1975. Triumph used a Lockheed caliper of similar design using the same bolt pattern and pad style but made from cast iron! Hold one of each in each hand and you will be surprised people think they are the same!

Rickman got in early on the use of disc brakes on race bikes in 1966, initially on their 7R/G50 based bikes/frame kits. They used hydraulic components (caliper and car type master cylinder activated by a cable) mainly derived from Mini Cooper parts which Lockheed supplied. The CP2195 was a lightweight development of that initial caliper.

AN reflect on the lineage to the CP2696 you mention here: https://andover-norton.co.uk/files/062/CP2195 feature.pdf

CP2696 is a fit and function replacement of the CP2195 and has the advantage that it is not 'handed' so only one model is required to be stocked, looks differ because it has 4 ribs and is slightly larger, but assumes more rigid and better cooling is achieved.

Reference to Girling is by way of added confusion only, because today Wassell owns the Girling brand, and it is now selling its Chinese copy of the CP2696 as a Girling item. It is not a 'Girling' design. As I understand it Wassell commissioned these copies initial when AP racing was not supplying the quantity the market wanted. I have one of these copies, they are pretty close in every respect to the CP2696.

All of these calipers have 41mm pistons and use the same type of semi rectangular pads held in place by two split pins, as does the very similar Grimeca caliper. Pad change is quick and easy and the construction is two halves bolted together for and aft, making them much easier and faster to rebuild that the Norton Lockheed caliper.

The 'Norton Lockheed' caliper is a single casting, requires special tools to dismantle, has 44mm pistons and as you all know, uses round pads with less pad area! No mention of AP, or racing!
 
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Rickman got in early on the use of disc brakes on race bikes in 1966, initially on their 7R/G50 based bikes/frame kits. They used hydraulic components (caliper and car type master cylinder activated by a cable) mainly derived from Mini Cooper parts which Lockheed supplied. The CP2195 was a lightweight development of that initial caliper.
this came up from looking around
"The Rickman Bros shamelessly stole his design (in all exact detail, with the Lockheed caliper, etc), for which he had a patent application, and began selling them as 'their design' on their road-race bikes. Al died a few years later of injuries from hitting a track wall at speed, so he never got the opportunity to sue them. A black spot on the Rickman Bros record."
 
Yes, AP racing is a remnant of what was AP Lockheed and supplies a range of former AP Lockheed race parts. The contemporary race caliper to the Norton Lockheed road caliper was the CP2195 '3 rib' caliper. This caliper was used on the PR versions of the Commando, prior to the standard road bike getting a disc brake..

This is the part i find particularly intriguing, how/why did norton end up with a unique caliper?
 
With a chrome plated disc, it is difficult to find pads which will work so the brake is better than a drum. - STUPID DESIGN ! - Japanese high speed steel discs are much better. I use two of them with two Lockheed callipers with asbestos pads. And my master cylinder is the same one which is usually used with two callipers. I use my forefinger to operate my front brake. And for racing, it needs to be like that !
 
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this came up from looking around
"The Rickman Bros shamelessly stole his design (in all exact detail, with the Lockheed caliper, etc), for which he had a patent application, and began selling them as 'their design' on their road-race bikes. Al died a few years later of injuries from hitting a track wall at speed, so he never got the opportunity to sue them. A black spot on the Rickman Bros record."
Not sure that I buy into that 100%.

One. Look up Airheart discs. They were used in the US on Flat track bikes, as a rear, mainly, but also on road racers, say '64, but certainly before the Rickman set up was developed with UK based AP Lockheed using Lockheed parts from a BMC produced car. Did Gunther inspire Airheart? or the other way around?

A bike with an Airheart clamp on hydraulic brake was taken to the UK around this time and this has been referred to as inspiration for others.

The one picture I can find of Al Gunther's disc brake parts shows a clamp on style caliper, which appears smaller than the Mini Cooper one Rickman used in their set-up, which was fitted to a bracket cast into lower fork legs of their own manufacture. The disc and hub do bear a lot of similarity with Gunther's, and both designs used the car type master cylinder.

But it seems to me that various people were working on the disc brake development at around the same time. In '65 Dave Croxford won a race with a Colin Lyster clamp on caliper style disc brake on a Seeley G50.

Lyster went on to develop a twin disc clamp on caliper set up which was first copied by Dunstall, and then Dunstall cast the whole caliper into the fork legs, a set-up many here have seen as part of the 'Dunstall Commando' spec!

The Rickman history book states Rickman were first to win a race with a hydraulic disc set up, in March '66 at Mallory Park with a G50 powered road racer ridden by Bill Ivy. That as far as I am concerned is not true due to Dave Croxford's claim, and he has pictures. However, it is clear that Rickman did not work alone on their disc set up, they worked with the hydraulic supplier AP Lockheed. So 'shamelessly stole his design' may be a step beyond what actually happened.
 
With a chrome plated disc, it is difficult to find pads which will work so the brake is better than a drum. - STUPID DESIGN ! - Japanese high speed steel discs are much better. I use two of them with two Lockheed callipers with asbestos pads. And my master cylinder is the same one which is usually used with two callipers. I use my forefinger to operate my front brake. And for racing, it needs to be like that !
Asbestos Pads.....not been available for maybe 2 decades Al.....
 
Lambretta scooters had cable operated inboard disc brakes in the early 60's I seem to remember.
 
Asbestos Pads.....not been available for maybe 2 decades Al.....
Maybe its been that long since he's been out on his Norton, sorry Al, I know the original disc pads lasted a very long time but got worst as they got older, I rode my Norton for over 35 years with the original pads and they still have plenty of meat on them but I am not a heavy braker and brake pads seem to last me for ever even on all my bikes as well cars.
 
Lambretta scooters had cable operated inboard disc brakes in the early 60's I seem to remember.




 
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Lambretta 1962 apparently, but look at this. An Imperial from 1906 with a real disc brake...

 
The works Benelli squad had cable operated front discs on the 250-4 in 1965/66, Provini was trying them out. Not sure but I think they were made by Campagnolo? Better known for the later alloy wheels.
 

History

Disc-style brakes development and use began in England in the 1890s. The first caliper-type automobile disc brake was patented by Frederick William Lanchester in his Birmingham factory in 1902 and used successfully on Lanchester cars. However, the limited choice of metals in this period meant that he had to use copper as the braking medium acting on the disc. The poor state of the roads at this time, no more than dusty, rough tracks, meant that the copper wore quickly, making the disc brake system non-viable (as recorded in The Lanchester Legacy). It took another half century for his innovation to be widely adopted
 
I now have my father's 1959 TR3a. It claims to be the first mass produced car with disc brakes, when the model came out in '57. They're disc front, drum rear, hydraulic, work very well and give no trouble.
 
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