Norton 880 long-term project

Would it be legal for vintage racing? I was told the FCR carbs are not accepted, there might also be other bits that are just too modern (brakes? monoshock?) It would be a shame to damage it on a track.

Jean

Jeandr said:

Would it be legal for vintage racing? I was told the FCR carbs are not accepted, there might also be other bits that are just too modern (brakes? monoshock?) It would be a shame to damage it on a track.

Jean

Click to expand...

That depends upon the sanctioning organization and class. I've only raced with WERA Vintage and AHRMA. I don't believe it would be legal in any of the true vintage classes. It would probably be legal in the formula classes and perhaps BEARS in AHRMA, I'd have to review the rules as I only race in Classic 60's. I also used to race in Sportsman 750 and know that it would not be legal there. In general, the vintage class rules state the the frame has to be of a type raced in the era of the class and the swingarm can only have minor modifications. You can see the rules yourself at : http://ahrma.org/rulebook/index.htm It would probably be legal in WERA Vintage V4 or higher where it would be matched against Ducati's. AHRMA is trying to extend their classes to increasingly modern bikes since the people interested in the pre-war and bikes up through the early 70's are becoming fewer in number (or too old to race). AHRMA has classes in which the new Triumph 675 and complete exotics like the Irving Vincent are legal and in fact encouraged. The other consideration is that you are probably gridding up with some of the best vintage racers in the nation such as Tim Joyce or Robert McLendon.

The challenge with a bike like this one is building something based upon 30-40 year old design base that will compete with a modern Triumph 675, a Ducati 750 or similar. Very tough undertaking. However, I know that Paul knows what he's doing. That's what made this so interesting to me.

I have to humbly re-iterate that I'm leaning completely on all of Kenny Dreer's work in developing the 880, I'm just assembling all the shiny bits into a running bike.

This would definitely be a Bass in a Shark tank if it were to be raced anywhere near as-is against Irving Vincents, Ducati desmo SS 750s or TZ750 Yamahas!

I've replied here and there to some of your positive comments, but perhaps this is a good point to thank EVERYONE who has offered encouragement along the way and I really appreciate all the congratulations, although I feel it's only right to pass them on to Kenny D.

My original goal was to have the 880 complete for Christmas, I think I'm still on track and I'm really excited about that first twist of the wrist!

Just got back from a 5-week contract installing computers, and itching to get back to work and finally finish this build!

Here's the "poop" on the bike, hope to verify the performance specs when the weather starts to cool down some (any day now, I hope)

Engine
Norton 850 Commando Mark III base, vertical air-cooled OHV pushrod twin, dry sump
Kenny Dreer VR880 specification engine cases, decked, matched and mated
JE 880 dish-topped forged pistons and rings, OEM 850 cast iron cylinders, bored to 880cc
Baisley prepared 750 Norton head, plugged & machined to 850 stud spacing, external oil drain
Norton 750 crankshaft & flywheel, 850 connecting rods, dynamically balanced
Koyo maximum capacity 9-ball main bearings, needle cam bearings in lieu of bushings
Megacycle 560-00 camshaft with radiused followers & vernier adjustable cam sprocket
Smith Bros. alloy pushrods, Sparx 3-phase alternator kit, Spyke electric starter
KPM heavy-duty valve springs with titanium valve collets & keepers, Ferrea lash caps
7mm stem oversize valves with Coventry Spares radiused adjusters
Lytedrive 30mm 32Tx68T belt drive primary system with Sureflex clutch friction plates
Custom made Carbon-fiber primary enclosure (one of only three hand built for Dreer)
Kehin FCR 35mm flat-slide carbs mounted to 33mm intakes, matched to head
OEM Norton 850 engine covers, oil pump, transmission, clutch hub, rockers & shafts

Chassis
Norton 850 Commando Mark III frame, modified for upper monoshock mounting
Dreer Custom fabricated monoshock swingarm with “big bearing” conversion
Isolastic eng/trans mounting subframe, modified for e-start and swingarm bearings
Kawasaki 636 Fork yokes, stem turned to fit OEM Norton steering bearings
Mark III vernier isolastic mount system with Taylor top steady & Eads front steady

Wheels & axles
Excel rims (2.5” F, 3.5” R) laced with Stainless Steel spokes & nipples by Buchanan’s
Custom built rear axle & spacers for OEM Norton Mark III rear hub
Kawasaki 636 front axle with custom built bearings by Buffalo Bearings
Dreer VR880 dual disc front hub & rotor spacers, with custom built axle spacers
Metzeler Lasertech tires: 100/90x19 Front, 120/80x18 Rear

Suspension & Brakes
Front: Showa 41mm fully adjustable (compression, rebound & damping) inverted forks
Rear: KYB fully adjustable, gas charged reservoir rear monoshock
Front: Dual 4-pot Tokiko calipers, 298mm Brembo full-floating rotors, Nissin master cyl.
Rear: 2-pot Nissin caliper, lightened & drilled Norton 280mm rotor, Nissin master cyl.

Cycle Parts
Dreer VR880 matched seat/tail, fuel cell & sidecovers; in Blue with Red & White pinstriping
Dreer ONE-OFF “tuck in” exhaust headers w/ peashooter reverse cone megaphone mufflers
RK 520 chain, Drag Specialties Aero 95mm gas cap assembly, CRG bar-end mirrors
Kawasaki 636 push-pull throttle & clutch lever assembly, Doherty HD cables
OEM Norton footpegs, center stand, oil tank, kickstarter

Electrical Equipment
Sparx 12 volt, 230 watt, 3-phase alternator, Sparx 3-phase regulator/rectifier, H4 halogen headlight
Sparx magnetic trigger electronic ignition, Blue Streak dual-lead 4 ohm, 12 volt ignition coil
Kawasaki 636 handlebar mounted lighting & accessory control switches (2005 spec)
Born Again Bikes hand-wired electrical harness system
AGM heavy duty battery, Barrel-type security keyswitch

Performance Specifications
10.25:1 Compression Ratio
Approximately 65 Rear Wheel Horsepower @ 6,500 RPM
Approximately 56 lb/ft Maximum torque @ 6,500 RPM
Maximum engine RPM – 7,000
Balance Factor – 63% (wet)
0 – 60 MPH – 3 seconds
0 – 100 MPH – 10 seconds
¼ mile Elapsed Time – 11.5 seconds @ 120 MPH
Top Speed – 137 MPH

Physical Specifications
Dry weight – 375 lbs
Wheelbase – 56”
Seat height – 32”
Overall length – 84”
Overall height @ top of meters – 42”
Overall width @ handlebar tips – 27”
Ground clearance – 5-1/2”

Steering Geometry
Rake – 62 degrees
Trail – 5”
Stem-to-Fork Offset = 1”
Turning radius – approx. 20’
Maximum lean angle at full suspension compression – 42 degrees

Final Drive Specifications
Engine sprocket - 21 Teeth
Rear wheel sprocket - 42 Teeth
Overall Final Drive Ratio (4th gear) – 4.25:1

Fluid capacities & specifications
Fuel cell – 3.75 U.S. Gallons
Oil Tank – 3 U.S. Quarts, Castrol GTX 20/50
Transmission – .9 U.S. Pints, Castrol Hypoy 80/140
Front forks (each leg) – 426cc, Castrol GTX 5w

Valve Lash Clearances (COLD)
Intake – .010”
Exhaust – .010”

Ignition Timing
Static – 32 BTDC
Fully advanced (5,000 RPM) – 28 BTDC

Spark Plug
Type – NGK B8ES
Gap - .025”

I'm glad you are back from this silly earning money stuff and can get back on track amusing us with your project!

GP,

Great write up. A few Q's

What ignition you using?
Any specific reason for using a 750 head, or is it one of those 'that's what I had on the bench'?
The performance stats shown, are those as performed by you, or are they estimates?

Nice looking ride!!!

The Baisley 880 head is built up from a 750 head to Kenny Dreer's specifications. I bought it from Kenny right before he started liquidating his entire inventory, ready to bolt on.

The performance specs are also according to Kenny, and should AT LEAST meet these numbers, and probably exceed them. His dyno testing typically returned these numbers as a baseline; some units performed better than others depending on specific tweaks and equipment.

Ignition is Sparx electronic; that's all I sell. I'm sure the Tri-Spark is a better alternative, but I happened to have one on the shelf, and I'm CHEAP. The greatest liklihood is that I'll put this Sparx unit on my Combat, and pull the ARD micro-electronic magneto off the Combat for the 880. As it is, the engine in the bike right now is a bone-stock 850 lump, till I can build the hot-rod 880 mill (my goal was originally Christmas '09).

She probably goes pretty good with the bone stock 850 doesn't she? Running my little 750 yesterday made me remember just how much juice those little bikes have. She does not spin all that high for RPMs and runs out of gears really quickly but there is much more thrill of speed than a modern bike.

I think the bone-stock 850 will produce over 75% of the power of the 880, so it's not going to be a quantum leap getting the 880 lump done, more of a "show of force".

ludwig said:

GP ,
What is the advantage of monoshock over stereoshocks in an otherwise std Commando frame ?

Click to expand...

I'd have to venture the "coolness" factor. :mrgreen:

Belt drive ratio, and the red line is actually much higher, just that peak power drops off. The final FACTS will be revealed on the dyno next year.

I was interested in the Norton Rotary come-back in the UK. But, now I see they are going to offer Norton Commando 961. It looks similar to what Kenny Dreer was developing. Is it the same bike?

For the most part yes, He sold the design and name back to a guy in the U.K.

Gday Grandpaul,
"Congratulations" on what is a beautiful looking bike! I know all about the time, effort, research and dedication that goes into producing a finished product like yours. great Stuff. Im interested in the needle roller cam bearings you,ve used. Was this mod relative simple or did the cases have to be machined, any improvements to the oil supply and a rough geusstimate of cost etc etc?
Regards Foxy

Foxy,

The needle roller cam bearings were used on some of the last of the Dreer 880s, and the single unit I have in that case came with it from Kenny. I have yet to match it up (with his guidance on the source), but will do so before the 880 lump starts going together in earnest. Logic dictates that the cases would have been bored to accept the overall significantly larger dimension of the roller assembly.

The prices I paid Kenny for all the stuff he sold me were a bit skewed, as I bought quite a lot, and also helped him liquidate his final remaining inventory. One of the few "realistic" prices will be bits exactly like that needle bearing that will be sourced directly, at current price levels. I'll report back when it happens.

Thanx to you and all who have replied with positive and constructively critical comments!

Good to hear from you Paul, I was wondering where you were. It had been awhile since we heard from you. Are you going to Bonneville this year? A guy ran 261 mph on a sit down bike at Speedweek, I think it was a turbo busa. 500+ H.P.

Any new pictures?

Jean

Sadly, no trip to Bonneville, or any other vintage roadracing venues, are on my calendar this year (or next, for that matter). The play money is all spent.

Big D (Keith Martin, Dallas, TX) set two records for normally aspirated pushrod twins last week, pretty danged cool.

No progress pix on the 880, as there has been no progress!

Hi GrandPaul; I just found and joined accessnorton. I've read your whole project. Pretty spectacular. I'm looking forward to following this build to it's finish. I completed an 880 build in 2005. I just did the motor. The rest of my bike is a 72 roadster with modifications very minor compared to yours. I used a 75 850 with 880 overbore. I got the JE pistons and Total Seal ring set that Kenny was using. Also the Megacycle cam and springs. I used Carrillo steel rods because my 920
turned to dust when the small end failed on a tested and polished aluminum rod. I had the stock crank tested and ballanced by Falicon. Dan Baisley checked and reconditioned the head from my 920. It is ported to 34mm intake and exhaust and I
am using twin 34mm Mikunis. Everything went together very nicely except I had the devil of a time getting to my target compression ratio of 10.5. The head had been shaved a lot when the 920 was built and I had to keep removing material from the pistons and cc'ing the motor until it was right. I also used the thick barrel spacer. I broke the motor in on a dyno using the quick break in method and it rear wheel clocked just north of 60 hp and 57 # torque at 5100 rpm. I've ridden it a lot since then and it's been completely reliable. It is, however, hyper sensitive to exhaust pipe changes. I'm glad I found your thread. I'll be keeping an eye on it.

Hey there, knort.

That's great info on stuff that happens, happened, and could happen again! Thanx for the comments.