No Spark on Boyer - Fixed

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

kraakevik said:
Dave

I've got similar troubles with a negative-ground Boyer on my 850 Commando--if you give me your e-mail address I'll forward my exchanges with the Boyer boffins to date.

Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
Three Commandos

I think the most important question is... did you get it sorted?

email sent.

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Jeandr said:
Swoosh, why not put a meter on the output lead of the boyer (that is the lead that goes to the coil) and take a reading...

When switched on, what is the reading

12.46v

Jeandr said:
Without touching anything, wait a minute, what is the reading

12.42v

Jeandr said:
Take off the plugs (just to make it easy), kick with vigor and take a reading

Drops to 12.05v then bounces back to 12.41v

I have it on the charger now to get it up closer to 13v.

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Swapped out the new (unused) Triumph stator. No difference.

Battery at 13.06v, can't be that.

If I switch to some other ignition, like a Paxon, who's to say I won't have the same problem? Doesn't the Paxon have the same basic configuration, trigger wires, stator, rotor and black box?

gjr · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Dave,

How much resistance do you have between the Boyer and ground ? It looks like there are a couple switches in the path. You might want to disconnect your battery before trying this to protect your VOM. I don't recall, have you tried hot wiring the ignition ?

My Boyer has worked flawlessly for about 20 years, except the time the pick up wires broke off and the time the ground wire broke on the way to Lumby. When I sent my ignition to Boyer, ages ago, they checked it for free and sent it back in about 10 days.

Greg

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

My Boyer configuration. Hopefully someone will spot something stupid I did.

Battery. Red = Positive, Black = Negative

Fuse Panel. Battery (+) Red goes to ignition switch. White wire in center comes from ignition switch to fuse panel. Ground from battery (-) Black comes into a ground block also on the fuse panel. You can see the ground block just to the right of the (+) post of the battery.

From the fuse panel there is a white wire (+) that comes in and feeds the handlebar switch. From the kill switch (White/Yellow) it comes down and joins a White/Red wire that goes to the (+) side of the coil. With the ignition on this shows the same voltage as the battery.

Positive side of the coil. The White/Red is coming from the Kill Switch and the Red is going to the Boyer.

Remembering that this is Negative Ground the Red Wire from the Boyer goes to the Positive side of the Coil.

Negative side of the Coil. Black wire is coming from the Boyer.

White wire from the Boyer connects to a Black wire which is grounded to the head. The other ground wire goes back to the Ground Block on the Fuse Panel. There is an additional wire that goes from the Ground Block to the frame.

The Black/Yellow from the Boyer connects to a Red Wire which connects to the Black/Yellow wire on the Stator. The Black/White wire from the Boyer connects to the White/Blue wire which connects to the Black/White wire on the stator. No amount of shaking or wiggling seems to affect the continuity of the wires.

This is what I used as a guide for the wiring:

Note this is marked for a Positive Ground system.

Ok, aside from using a Boyer, what did I do wrong?

I swapped out the Stator for one in teh Triumph kit. Same symptoms. I swapped out the Black Box and there was no spark at all.

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

gjr said:
Dave,

How much resistance do you have between the Boyer and ground ? It looks like there are a couple switches in the path. You might want to disconnect your battery before trying this to protect your VOM. I don't recall, have you tried hot wiring the ignition ?

My Boyer has worked flawlessly for about 20 years, except the time the pick up wires broke off and the time the ground wire broke on the way to Lumby. When I sent my ignition to Boyer, ages ago, they checked it for free and sent it back in about 10 days.

Greg

Across the Coil I get a little over 6ohms. I think it should be 5ohms. Not sure what the variance is on those.

Where would I check the resistance of the Boyer to Ground? What two points (see above).

gjr · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Sorry, I'm still in the positive earth mode. + coil to + battery terminal lead (disconnected from the battery). Discharge (short) the starting capacitor before applying your ohm meter.

I can't tell how your kill switch or handle bar switch is wired. There is something confusing about that wiring. It might just be the change in wire color. On mine, the black wire goes to the - on the first coil. The red wire from the Boyer goes to the + terminal on the first coil. The two coils are jumpered together ( + to - ) with a red wire. The red wire from the Boyer and the jumper are connected to the same terminal on the first coil (+). Another red wire goes from + on the second coil to the ground on the frame (OMG!). I think that part is equivilant to your wiring other than your coil is a twin lead.

Do you have two coils to substitute ? Do you have a complete ignition system off a running Commando to substitute ? Have you tried it with the kill switch disconnected ?

I still lean towards disconneting as much as possible and simply hot wiring the Boyer. Negative battery post to the white wire, positive to the + coil terminal, i.e. simplify the system as much as possible.

Greg

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

gjr said:
Sorry, I'm still in the positive earth mode. + coil to + battery terminal lead (disconnected from the battery). Discharge (short) the starting capacitor before applying your ohm meter.

Neg Batt (-) to Positive Coil post (+) 54.9 ohms
Neg Batt (-) to Neg Coil post (-) 62.6 ohms
Pos Batt (+) through ign switch to Pos Coil post (+) 13.6 ohms
Post Batt (+) through ign switch to Neg Coil post (-) 8.3 ohms
Across Coil posts 6.3 ohms

I do not know what the starting capacitor is and it's not in this system. I think that's not used with the dual output coil although it is listed in the Old Britts wiring diagram.

gjr said:
I can't tell how your kill switch or handle bar switch is wired. There is something confusing about that wiring. It might just be the change in wire color. On mine, the black wire goes to the - on the first coil. The red wire from the Boyer goes to the + terminal on the first coil. The two coils are jumpered together ( + to - ) with a red wire. The red wire from the Boyer and the jumper are connected to the same terminal on the first coil (+). Another red wire goes from + on the second coil to the ground on the frame (OMG!). I think that part is equivilant to your wiring other than your coil is a twin lead.

Kill switch is wired to open the circuit between the Batt (+) and the Coil (+) effectively cutting power to the coil.

gjr said:
Do you have two coils to substitute ? Do you have a complete ignition system off a running Commando to substitute ? Have you tried it with the kill switch disconnected ?

I still lean towards disconneting as much as possible and simply hot wiring the Boyer. Negative battery post to the white wire, positive to the + coil terminal, i.e. simplify the system as much as possible.

Greg

I do not have any other ignition system options at this point aside from the Triumph Boyer as mentioned above. I have hotwired to no avail.

gjr · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Dave,

It sounds like this problem is wearing you down. You should sell the bike to me for $500 just to get the stress out of your life...

Your resistance measurements look funny. Going from the + battery cable, through the ignition switch, to the + terminal of the coil should be less than the same path plus the coil. Same with going from the negative cable to the +/- terminals of the coil. I'm guessing that's a typo.

Eight ohms through your wiring, ignition and kill switchs seems like a lot.

The Boyer wants to see more than 3 and less than 6 ohms of coil resistance. A six volt Lucas coil is less than 2 ohms. Two coils in series is less than 4 ohms. That could be the reason the bike is hard to start. Is there someone around who could loan you a set of 6V coils ? I ran my bike back from Lake Tahoe with NAPA 6V car coils after a Hardly Ableson Screaming Beagle dual output coil crapped out on me. I should have known that it would not be suitable for a proper motorcycle...

The troubleshooting sheet that I got from Boyer says:

1. Switching the ignition on should produce a steady current through the ignition coils except for the Norton unit. This remains off until triggered by turning the engine or disconnecting the yellow/black or white black wires.

It goes on about no current through the coils which does not all apply to Nortons.

4. Switching off ignition should produce a spark at all spark plugs. The Norton unit would require turning the engine or disconnecting the Y/B or W/B wire. ( Firing on one cylinder only, one coil shorting to earth could be either coil)

If test No. 1 is correct but no spark is produced on switching off, the transister box is faulty. (not the case for Nortons, my comment)

5. The transistor box can be tested in circuit by disconnecting the Y/B and W/B wire and with the ignition on they can be touched together and broken, this should produce a spark at the plugs. If not the box is faulty.

If you do that, what happens ? Although if the coils have too much resistance for the Boyer, it may not matter. I think an old style 12V car coil has about 3.4 ohms and could work for troubleshooting.

I did not see your question to Hobot about the Y/B and W/B leads get answered. The Y/B lead on the pick up must be connected to the Y/B lead on the box. Same with the W/B. If they are reversed the timing is messed up.

If push comes to shove I think I can put together a complete points ignition system for you to try. It would be for a '70 Commando. I would need to get it back.

Greg

Jeandr · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
Jeandr said:

Swoosh, why not put a meter on the output lead of the boyer (that is the lead that goes to the coil) and take a reading...

When switched on, what is the reading

Click to expand...

12.46v

Jeandr said:

Without touching anything, wait a minute, what is the reading

Click to expand...

12.42v

Jeandr said:

Take off the plugs (just to make it easy), kick with vigor and take a reading

Click to expand...

Drops to 12.05v then bounces back to 12.41v

I have it on the charger now to get it up closer to 13v.

Well, my diagnosis is the Boyer is toast. When switched on, the voltage should have dropped close to 0 and then go up to 12 volts. When kicking the voltage should have dropped a lot but maybe not all the way to zero.

There is another possibility, the coil is faulty. The way to test is to disconnect the wire going to the Boyer. Now turn on the ignition, use a clip and ground the side of the coil from which you took off the wire and see if you get a spark when you take the clip off, if you do get a spark, the coil is good and this confirms the Boyer is hosed.

Jean

highdesert · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Do you have a friend that could lend you their spare or for sale boyer to swap out for yours and verify if the boyer is the problem?

CanukNortonNut · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Hey Dave
For a $144.26 you could switch back to a Positive system 354-1009/A Norton cloth main harness. :mrgreen:

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

gjr said:
Dave,

It sounds like this problem is wearing you down. You should sell the bike to me for $500 just to get the stress out of your life...

I'm moved by your generosity.

gjr said:
Your resistance measurements look funny. Going from the + battery cable, through the ignition switch, to the + terminal of the coil should be less than the same path plus the coil. Same with going from the negative cable to the +/- terminals of the coil. I'm guessing that's a typo.

Yeah, I don't know how I messed that up.

gjr said:
Eight ohms through your wiring, ignition and kill switchs seems like a lot.

Doesn't that include the 6.3 ohms for the coil?

gjr said:
The Boyer wants to see more than 3 and less than 6 ohms of coil resistance. A six volt Lucas coil is less than 2 ohms. Two coils in series is less than 4 ohms. That could be the reason the bike is hard to start. Is there someone around who could loan you a set of 6V coils ? I ran my bike back from Lake Tahoe with NAPA 6V car coils after a Hardly Ableson Screaming Beagle dual output coil crapped out on me. I should have known that it would not be suitable for a proper motorcycle...

Coil is reading 6.3 ohms. I have an email into Old Britts asking about that, as that's where I got the coil from.

gjr said:
5. The transistor box can be tested in circuit by disconnecting the Y/B and W/B wire and with the ignition on they can be touched together and broken, this should produce a spark at the plugs. If not the box is faulty.

If you do that, what happens ? Although if the coils have too much resistance for the Boyer, it may not matter. I think an old style 12V car coil has about 3.4 ohms and could work for troubleshooting.

Produces a spark. Noted at least once before.

gjr said:
I did not see your question to Hobot about the Y/B and W/B leads get answered. The Y/B lead on the pick up must be connected to the Y/B lead on the box. Same with the W/B. If they are reversed the timing is messed up.

Follow the pictures. Wires are matched up correctly. Wouldn't make a difference as it throws the timing off but should still produce a spark when turning over.

gjr said:
If push comes to shove I think I can put together a complete points ignition system for you to try. It would be for a '70 Commando. I would need to get it back.

Greg

I'll just get a Pazon if I decide to give up.

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

highdesert said:
Do you have a friend that could lend you their spare or for sale boyer to swap out for yours and verify if the boyer is the problem?

As noted above I swapped out the stator for a spare I had. Same results.

Swapping out the box for a Triumph one produced no spark at all. I probably messed something up.

swooshdave · Aug 27, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Jeandr said:
Well, my diagnosis is the Boyer is toast. When switched on, the voltage should have dropped close to 0 and then go up to 12 volts. When kicking the voltage should have dropped a lot but maybe not all the way to zero.

When switch on the positive side of the coil shouldn't change at all. It's connected to the battery. What would cause it to drop? There's no load, isn't there? Are you sure I'm measuring at the right place? Should I be in the negative (ground) side of the coil taking those measurements?

Jeandr said:
There is another possibility, the coil is faulty. The way to test is to disconnect the wire going to the Boyer. Now turn on the ignition, use a clip and ground the side of the coil from which you took off the wire and see if you get a spark when you take the clip off, if you do get a spark, the coil is good and this confirms the Boyer is hosed.

Jean

If I understand you here (please confirm with the pictures above): disconnect the red wire going from the Boyer to the positive side of the coil. Then GROUND the positive side of the coil? I'm a little iffy here. Is that right?

maylar · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
Jeandr said:

Jeandr said:

There is another possibility, the coil is faulty. The way to test is to disconnect the wire going to the Boyer. Now turn on the ignition, use a clip and ground the side of the coil from which you took off the wire and see if you get a spark when you take the clip off, if you do get a spark, the coil is good and this confirms the Boyer is hosed.

Jean

Click to expand...

If I understand you here (please confirm with the pictures above): disconnect the red wire going from the Boyer to the positive side of the coil. Then GROUND the positive side of the coil? I'm a little iffy here. Is that right?

Click to expand...

No, the other side. You have negative ground. The Boyer box acts as a switch between the coil and ground. Touching the load end of the coil (black wire) to ground should create spark.

Another test you can make is to put a voltmeter on the black wire (Boyer connection to the coil), turn on the ignition. You should see 12 volts since the coil is a piece of wire and the Boyer is "off". Now very slowly rotate the rear wheel (spark plugs out) until the first pickup pulse is sent from the stator. The Boyer MKIII will turn "on" for one second waiting for the 2nd pulse. You'll see the voltmeter go from battery voltage to near zero for that second, then back to 12V.

Beware that the black wire will have a couple hundred volts on it when the engine is running.

gjr · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
Pos Batt (+) through ign switch to Pos Coil post (+) 13.6 ohms
Post Batt (+) through ign switch to Neg Coil post (-) 8.3 ohms
Across Coil posts 6.3 ohms

It looks like you went from the + battery to either side of the coil. One or the other would not include the coil. 13.6 is about 6 more than 8.3, so the 8.3 is probabaly the resistance on the power side before the coil. Which still seems like a lot, and may be a part of the problem.

Subbing a Triumph unit may not indicate anything on a Norton. Boyer lists different units for each bike and the Boyer diagnostics say that they act differently. It is possible that the Boyer was bad, new in the box, but if making and breaking the Y/B and W/B connections produces a spark, the unit appears to be working. The only parts left are the coil, wires, and plugs.

Same old advice: You have too many variables. Simplify the system as much as possible. Find a 4 ohm coil. Test it. Connect it to the Boyer. Install one known good, spark plug wire and plug. Use allegator clips to connect the spark plug shell to the neg. battery terminal. Hot wire the Boyer. Kick the bike over.

You also are getting advice from several people who each have their own way of working through problems. You will have to treat them as totally independent tests. My advice is not related to anything that jeandr or maylar are suggesting. Trying to amalgamate the ideas from different sources could lead to incorrect or confusing conclusions...

Greg

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

maylar said:
No, the other side. You have negative ground. The Boyer box acts as a switch between the coil and ground. Touching the load end of the coil (black wire) to ground should create spark.

Another test you can make is to put a voltmeter on the black wire (Boyer connection to the coil), turn on the ignition. You should see 12 volts since the coil is a piece of wire and the Boyer is "off". Now very slowly rotate the rear wheel (spark plugs out) until the first pickup pulse is sent from the stator. The Boyer MKIII will turn "on" for one second waiting for the 2nd pulse. You'll see the voltmeter go from battery voltage to near zero for that second, then back to 12V.

Beware that the black wire will have a couple hundred volts on it when the engine is running.

Please look at my pictures carefully again. You say "black wire" but on my configuration the black wire is the coming from the Boyer to the Negative side of the coil. Is that what you mean by the "load end"?

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

gjr said:
Same old advice: You have too many variables. Simplify the system as much as possible. Find a 4 ohm coil. Test it. Connect it to the Boyer. Install one known good, spark plug wire and plug. Use allegator clips to connect the spark plug shell to the neg. battery terminal. Hot wire the Boyer. Kick the bike over.

I'll try that next.

gjr said:
You also are getting advice from several people who each have their own way of working through problems. You will have to treat them as totally independent tests. My advice is not related to anything that jeandr or maylar are suggesting. Trying to amalgamate the ideas from different sources could lead to incorrect or confusing conclusions...

Greg

I don't mind all the advice, even if it varies. It's better to have 50 ideas than my one idea. At some point someone might have an answer to the mystery, and it might just be toss the Boyer and get something else.

Jeandr · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

You have to measure between point "A" and ground. The switch illustrates what the Boyer does as well as what you would do with a clip.

If the Boyer works correctly, the voltage at point "A" should go to zero volts (or close to that) and then go to 12 volts for a very brief instant when the spark is produced. When you switch it on, it should go to 0, your ampmeter should deflect showing current draw, after a few seconds of inactivity, the voltage at point "A" should go up to 12 volts, this is a protection circuit to stop the Boyer from drawing current all the time thereby protecting its output circuits as well as the coils. When you kick your bike, the Boyer "wakes up" and will again go down to zero drawing current.

When I asked you to test the coil, you should have removed the wire going from the coil to the Boyer and used a clip to ground the coil, doing what the switch does. When you open the circuit, there should be a spark, if there is no spark, the coil is defective.

So again: measure point "A" (meter positive to "A" and negative to ground)

1- Switch on:
2- Wait a few seconds (30s):
3- Kick a few times:

1- should be 0 volts if Boyer is OK
2- should go to 12 volts if Boyer is OK
3- should be 0 volts if Boyer is OK

Jean

No Spark on Boyer - Fixed

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