No Spark on Boyer - Fixed

swooshdave · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

splatt said:
swooshdave said:

hobot said:

Static was 31º, as best we could tell at 5k it was 40º. Which is within the range I've heard is possible. The smooth garage floor made it really challenging to hold it at 5k. It scooted back so fast even with me doing my best to corral it. I should have dropped it off the center stand.

What???,31* should be your max,set the simple stuff up correct before fiddling with other crap.

Were the hell is the degree symbol on this bloody computer????

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Boyer Instructions per Old Britts which matches everything else I've seen. How do you set yours?

5) Set engine at 31 B.T.D.C. on the alternator mark (ensure correct mark is used - there are two marks on the alternator on 1972/3 models, use the mark indicating T.D.C. with the pistons in top position).

The problem is that I can't get the bike restarted to recheck the timing.

swooshdave · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

kommando said:
I recently lost the spark completely on the left side, cure was an extra earth lead from the head to the frame where the boyer earth was and a further earth from there back to the battery.

I don't have any grounds to the frame. Everything either grounds to the head (Boyer) or fuse panel (with a common ground) that also has a line to the head.

Anglophile · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Swooshdave, I know this is a lot of work but if I were in that situation I'd throw points back in and see if she starts easily.

swooshdave · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Anglophile said:
Swooshdave, I know this is a lot of work but if I were in that situation I'd throw points back in and see if she starts easily.

I don't think I have any points.

I won't be able to check this tonite but I plan on documenting (with photos) the configuration soon. This will give everyone a good chance to see where I messed up. :mrgreen:

KEV-C · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Hi dave
can you put the triumph boyer on to see if it sparks when kickingover.

grandpaul · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Step 1. THROW AWAY THE BOYER

Step 2. install a Sparx unit, kick once, ride away happy.

Hobot · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

OK, it has run and not been ride or dropped since.
Boyer will fire if making/breaking connections external to it trigger plate, implies power getting there. No spark when kicked over for trigger plate signals. Trigger plate, connections and proper timing is what I'd sip or spit next beer worth on.
The trigger leads must be attached in proper order with the color code on plate leads. Not likely but happens. Its possible you already broke the Boyer wires through entirely possible. You have thrown away the ballist resitor pack I assume so that shouldn't be in the way. I assume head light is off while starting.
Analog Boyer needs ~10.5 V to spark in time to start then alternator should pick up v 's nearer 12ish.

Head is not well grounded to chassis d/t isolastic and rubber mountings, so make sure head current has a good path back to battery.

Coco · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
kommando said:

I recently lost the spark completely on the left side, cure was an extra earth lead from the head to the frame where the boyer earth was and a further earth from there back to the battery.

Click to expand...

I don't have any grounds to the frame. Everything either grounds to the head (Boyer) or fuse panel (with a common ground) that also has a line to the head.

Why no grounds to the frame? Just curious.

I'm running almost every ground to two ground points on my frame and have nothing grounded to the head, ignition being grounded in the points cavity to one of the pillar bolts.

swooshdave · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Coco said:
swooshdave said:

kommando said:

I recently lost the spark completely on the left side, cure was an extra earth lead from the head to the frame where the boyer earth was and a further earth from there back to the battery.

Click to expand...

I don't have any grounds to the frame. Everything either grounds to the head (Boyer) or fuse panel (with a common ground) that also has a line to the head.

Click to expand...

Why no grounds to the frame? Just curious.

I'm running almost every ground to two ground points on my frame and have nothing grounded to the head, ignition being grounded in the points cavity to one of the pillar bolts.

I guess it's because I don't have anything that really HAS to be grounded to the frame. I tried to pull everything back to the fuse panel and then directly to the battery. That doesn't mean I can't though.

But I have the same ground path you do: Boyer to head, head to battery (via fuse panel).

As most have suspected there has to be something wrong with the Boyer stator, now to figure out what. I have continuity from the solders on the back of the stator plate all the way back to the Boyer box. I was hoping to get it running and then mod the Boyer stator with the brass studs, but I may have to do that now. It would eliminate one connection, which is always better.

swooshdave · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

hobot said:
OK, it has run and not been ride or dropped since.
Boyer will fire if making/breaking connections external to it trigger plate, implies power getting there. No spark when kicked over for trigger plate signals. Trigger plate, connections and proper timing is what I'd sip or spit next beer worth on.
The trigger leads must be attached in proper order with the color code on plate leads.

Do you just mean that I have to have the b/w and b/y connected to the b/w and b/y of the Boyer or something else?

hobot said:
Not likely but happens. Its possible you already broke the Boyer wires through entirely possible. You have thrown away the ballist resitor pack I assume so that shouldn't be in the way. I assume head light is off while starting.
Analog Boyer needs ~10.5 V to spark in time to start then alternator should pick up v 's nearer 12ish.

Headlight is off (not connected). Only thing that is on is the taillight. Blame grandpaul for that. :mrgreen:
Brand new AGM battery which was reading a solid 12.9v which is more than ample for the Boyer.

hobot said:
Head is not well grounded to chassis d/t isolastic and rubber mountings, so make sure head current has a good path back to battery.

One nice lead from the head to the battery.

norbsa48503 · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Dave, All things that use power must have a pathway in copper back to the battery. The list and therefore the ring connectors are numerous. You don’t want all those ring connectors on your battery because they will tarnish quickly. So we bring all the grounds back to a common ground on the frame and then run one heavy wire from that common point to the battery ground. The Boyer, the PODtronics, the head of the engine and the coils are at the top of the list but the head and tail light , horn also need the ground and any relays you have used as well. I have found a mistake in the directions for a negative ground system on some old Boyer instructions can you find the problem, it has to do with grounds. Think though each one listed here and make sure you are not using the frame for any grounds.

swooshdave · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

norbsa48503 said:
Dave, All things that use power must have a pathway in copper back to the battery. The list and therefore the ring connectors are numerous. You don’t want all those ring connectors on your battery because they will tarnish quickly. So we bring all the grounds back to a common ground on the frame and then run one heavy wire from that common point to the battery ground. The Boyer, the PODtronics, the head of the engine and the coils are at the top of the list but the head and tail light , horn also need the ground and any relays you have used as well. I have found a mistake in the directions for a negative ground system on some old Boyer instructions can you find the problem, it has to do with grounds. Think though each one listed here and make sure you are not using the frame for any grounds.

Stator plate. It's not on correctly as I've been taking it off to check connections. I'd like to eliminate those connectors with the studs.

Head grounds. One is directly from the Boyer. The other goes back to the common ground on the fuse panel.

Fuse panel. The cluster of blue spade connectors is the ground block. You can then see the ground wire from the block to the battery (left side).

Hobot · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Ya know its times like these that make me deeply question my capacity to own Commando's.
I've exactly your symptom once, sparks on every test until kicking attempted.
Turned out to be loose end of glass fuse that looked perfect. Bike motion caused.
I've had exactly ditto above by a frayed loose tail light ground wire. Shorted on motion to kick but not at rest. Who knows what lurks in your instant case.
I made a common ground inside head light shell and on battery box fender bolt in past Peel. Next time around will try to use chassis return as common ground so save some wiring clutter and mass. Peel will be negative ground too.

Jeandr · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

First, with a dual lead coil, you don't need to ground the engine, it would work as well without any grounds. Probably not good for electrical noise which may disturb sensitive electronic equipment on the bike like the regulator.

The other thing is I don't know if you are trying to start ip up or you are kicking it with the plugs out... plugs out would be the way to go if it doesn't start. Did you go trough this list http://www.britcycle.com/Manuals/BoyerT ... ooting.htm :?:

Jean

swooshdave · Aug 23, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Jeandr said:
First, with a dual lead coil, you don't need to ground the engine, it would work as well without any grounds. Probably not good for electrical noise which may disturb sensitive electronic equipment on the bike like the regulator.

The other thing is I don't know if you are trying to start ip up or you are kicking it with the plugs out... plugs out would be the way to go if it doesn't start. Did you go trough this list http://www.britcycle.com/Manuals/BoyerT ... ooting.htm :?:

Jean

I've gone through several troubleshooting lists. Most are copied from somewhere else as they all look the same.

http://www.ntnoa.org/engine.htm

This one is the most entertaining. :mrgreen:

swooshdave · Aug 25, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

I took another look at the bike tonite. I rechecked all the connections, I saw exactly one spark when I kicked it over, then nothing. It was the first kick. After that, dead. So odd.

tpeever · Aug 25, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
I took another look at the bike tonite. I rechecked all the connections, I saw exactly one spark when I kicked it over, then nothing. It was the first kick. After that, dead. So odd.

Are you getting enough speed in your kicks? You need about 200 rpm to start. The Commando takes a very firm kick all the way through. Kickbacks can be nasty so you gotta be decisive! If the bike is set up correctly, one kick with ignition off but enrichener circuit on (I assume you have a Mikuni?) and then another kick with ignition lit should do it.

Hobot · Aug 25, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Are you getting enough speed in your kicks? You need about 200 rpm to start. The Commando takes a very firm kick all the way through

hehe> hoho> LOL!

CanukNortonNut · Aug 25, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Dave
Try isolating the boyer box from your wire loom. Run direct wires to the boyer box and bypass the loom and try to start bike. Alligator clips and a couple of leads help in troubleshooting. It sure does sound like a ground problem. Also try also using high-tension leads for Coil to Sparkplug with copper core (Accel Type copper core wire). I had problems with carbon cores if that is what your using (Not sure if you are using Analogue or Digital box??
Regards,
CNN

swooshdave · Aug 25, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

CanukNortonNut said:
Dave
Try isolating the boyer box from your wire loom. run direct wires to the boyer box and bypass the loom and try to start bike. Alligator clips and a couple of leads help in troubleshooting. It sure does sound like a ground problem. Also Try also useing high tension leads Coil to Sparkplug leads with copper core (Accel Type copper core wire). (Not sure if you are using Analogue or Digital box??
Regards,
CNN

I have done this. No difference.

Spark Plug wires are new. I do not know the constructions, they are from Old Britts.

It's an Analogue box.

I just sent an email to Boyer. I'll let you know what they say.

No Spark on Boyer - Fixed

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