No longer anal about Amals

acotrel said:
I know I am old and silly, however I have been programmed to believe German and Japanese quality is better than British or Italian, but American metallurgy is the best. People such as Jim Schmidt and Andy Molnar are a new breed, and more stength to them. Norton were more into racing than road bikes, so it is reasonable to expect more of them. I regret I did not buy a 650SS, Atlas or a P11. Amal carbs go back a long way to a time when very precise tuning did not matter to most of us, except for people such as Francis Beart. An Amal GP carb is a bit different to a concentric.
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I would offer the Rolls Royce Merlin proved otherwise. 👊🏻💪🏻🏁




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I have used amal, bing, dellorto, mikuni, keihin, and bendix carbs of various types and a new carburetor properly jetted will always outperform a worn out carb. The amal carbs were probably the inspiration for the design of the mikuni carbs. Mikuni almost certainly learned a lot from amal. The carbs build by amal in the 1970s were done for the lowest possible price point, probably due to the customer demands of norton, triumph, etc. The materials were crap but good enough to sell the bikes. THese carbs are all worn out today and will not perform like a new carb, whether amal or keihin.

At least in my opinion, the japanese bike manufacturers never pushed the quality as low as the british makers. That said, while new amal premiers suffer from some quality control issues in assembly (floats set wrong, swarf left in passages, etc., the basic carb materials are, in my opinion, equal to the other carb manufacturers. I think the problem with concentrics was the materials and not the design, much better with the new ones than the 1970s monkey metal carbs.

The point I want to make is that it is unfair to compare the performance of an amal carb manufactured in the 1970s to a modern carb and conclude that the modern amal carbs are crap.
 
ilikevelos said:
That said, while new amal premiers suffer from some quality control issues in assembly (floats set wrong, swarf left in passages, etc. ..
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Even that is a thing of the past with carbs being shipped in the last year or so. The carbs used to be assembled and shipped without testing or setup. That is no longer true. So far, I have found nothing wrong with the sets with the test cable installed and the note in the box. Even before they started testing, it was rare to find anything wrong with the 900-series aluminum Premier carbs. The Zn Premier carbs did usually need going through.
 
ilikevelos said:
I have used amal, bing, dellorto, mikuni, keihin, and bendix carbs of various types and a new carburetor properly jetted will always outperform a worn out carb. The amal carbs were probably the inspiration for the design of the mikuni carbs. Mikuni almost certainly learned a lot from amal. The carbs build by amal in the 1970s were done for the lowest possible price point, probably due to the customer demands of norton, triumph, etc. The materials were crap but good enough to sell the bikes. THese carbs are all worn out today and will not perform like a new carb, whether amal or keihin.

At least in my opinion, the japanese bike manufacturers never pushed the quality as low as the british makers. That said, while new amal premiers suffer from some quality control issues in assembly (floats set wrong, swarf left in passages, etc., the basic carb materials are, in my opinion, equal to the other carb manufacturers. I think the problem with concentrics was the materials and not the design, much better with the new ones than the 1970s monkey metal carbs.

The point I want to make is that it is unfair to compare the performance of an amal carb manufactured in the 1970s to a modern carb and conclude that the modern amal carbs are crap.
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Don't forget the VM mikuni was designed by Amal
The British bike manufacturers at the time wouldn't pay amals development costs but mikuni would
So they bought the design
 
baz said:
Don't forget the VM mikuni was designed by Amal
The British bike manufacturers at the time wouldn't pay amals development costs but mikuni would
So they bought the design
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Did not know they paid anything. I thought they just copied.
 
I've always had good luck with Amals, both concentric and monobloc.
I'll add this clip to the roster of idling bikes.
The carbs are original and the mileage is 48,000. The slides are getting a bit loose but the bike still runs well so I just leave it alone. I don't spend any time tuning these carbs, they seem to stay happily in sync.
The bike also has the bad old Boyer with no " idle stabilization"

 
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ericg said:
I'll never understand that thing of Japanese bits bolted to old Brits.
If modern Japanese carbs work better than Amals, I'm sure it's the same with a modern Japanese engine that'll always be better than an old Norton one, same with brakes, frame, gearbox, forks. Where one stop? Why not buy a Japanese bike in the first place?
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Even old Japanese carb designs (VM round slide Mikunis) work better than Amals! ;)
 
The issue with Amals is not that they can run well. It is the amount of work it takes to make them work right. You are better off buying chinese PWK copies than the amals because they take the same amount of work to get a reliable product after all the work you put in to get them to work right. Plus with the PWK knock offs if something happens it is $20 to $60 to replace them. Amals are closing in on the price of keihin CRS for an inferior product. Tunability is so limited on Amal carbs I am not sure why anyone even bothers with them. The mikuni VM is probably the best value out there, plus with the VM there is an aftermarket to get faster air speed and atomization through the carb. Sadly fitting dual Mikuni VM in a Norton is just not on the table.
 
Britstuff said:
For what it's worth, I just bought and installed a pair of new Amal Premiers on my 1974 850 MKII. When purchased, the bike had a single Mikuni fitted and ran like a pig, (the carb had apparently suffered the ravages of Ethanol based fuel and been mutilated by a previous owner). I replaced the Mikuni with a pair of "sort of" rebuilt used standard Amals and for the most part the bike ran very nicely. The only (carb related) issue was that the left side insisted on running rather lean. Anyway, I purchased the premiers from Greg Marsh and the bike now runs beautifully! Thank you Greg! Yes, I still have some fine tuning to do and yes I had to play about with the idle screws and idle mixture, but nothing I would consider difficult or unexpected. Greg knew what jets etc worked best for my application and supplied the carbs accordingly.

It seems to me that what is important here is the need to obtain parts from people who know what they are talking about. My pistons and rings are from Jim Schmidt, the installation of which cured my bikes tendency to smoke like a chimney. Jim obviously also knows what he is talking about. I have no doubt the Keihin carbs are awesome, but hopefully with care and ethanol free fuel my Amal Premiers will serve for a long time to come.

We all have our own preferences, nothing wrong with that. My carb related sickness is I like SU's. Have often fantasized about finding one for the Commando.
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SUs work fine.......on my MG!
 
maaseyracer said:
...................The mikuni VM is probably the best value out there, plus with the VM there is an aftermarket to get faster air speed and atomization through the carb. Sadly fitting dual Mikuni VM in a Norton is just not on the table.
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fitting dual Mikuni VM.....neatly......in a Norton....Commando Frame.....is just not on the table ;)

I run a pair of VM36s on my short stroke in a Rickman frame.
 
maaseyracer said:
Sadly fitting dual Mikuni VM in a Norton is just not on the table.
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Not all Nortons are Commandos. ;)

I was able to fit a pair of Mikuni VM 34mm carburetors on a P11. Had to modify some Commando manifolds for twin Mikuni carburetors by turning them into spigot mount at the right angle, but they didn't stick out and hit my legs or look too awful. Old pic below

No longer anal about Amals
 
SteveA said:
fitting dual Mikuni VM.....neatly......in a Norton....Commando Frame.....is just not on the table ;)

I run a pair of VM36s on my short stroke in a Rickman frame.
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Schwany said:
Not all Nortons are Commandos. ;)

I was able to fit a pair of Mikuni VM 34mm carburetors on a P11. Had to modify some Commando manifolds for twin Mikuni carburetors by turning them into spigot mount at the right angle, but they didn't stick out and hit my legs or look too awful. Old pic below
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Sorry, yes the commando frame is the issue with fitment. On a side note I am working on a MK3 manifold for a friend that helps increase the volume in the manifold to get more range out of a single Mikuni VM. Battery position makes this really only a MK3 option, as it move the carburetor behind the frame brace.
 
Schwany said:
Not all Nortons are Commandos. ;)

I was able to fit a pair of Mikuni VM 34mm carburetors on a P11. Had to modify some Commando manifolds for twin Mikuni carburetors by turning them into spigot mount at the right angle, but they didn't stick out and hit my legs or look too awful. Old pic below

No longer anal about Amals
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Nice! What is that in the background? a 64 or 65 El Camino?
 
maaseyracer said:
Sorry, yes the commando frame is the issue with fitment. On a side note I am working on a MK3 manifold for a friend that helps increase the volume in the manifold to get more range out of a single Mikuni VM. Battery position makes this really only a MK3 option, as it move the carburetor behind the frame brace.
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My commando came to me with the frame brace removed and a chrome plated frame!!! Yuk
I've never bothered welding a brace back in and the world hasn't ended in 30 plus years
It's made life a lot easier with a single tm40 mikuni
 
maaseyracer said:
The issue with Amals is not that they can run well. It is the amount of work it takes to make them work right. You are better off buying chinese PWK copies than the amals because they take the same amount of work to get a reliable product after all the work you put in to get them to work right. Plus with the PWK knock offs if something happens it is $20 to $60 to replace them. Amals are closing in on the price of keihin CRS for an inferior product. Tunability is so limited on Amal carbs I am not sure why anyone even bothers with them. The mikuni VM is probably the best value out there, plus with the VM there is an aftermarket to get faster air speed and atomization through the carb. Sadly fitting dual Mikuni VM in a Norton is just not on the table.
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I haven't done any work at all to get my Commando running right with Amals. It came that way 20 years ago and I haven't touched them.
I have Amals on several other bikes as well, same deal there.
I had new Mikuni VMs on a Vincent. The floats liked to stick on those and the bike was hard starting, as are about ten other Mikuni equipped Vincents I'm familiar with. We had a local Vincent rebuilder who hated Amals and loved Mikunis. He insisted on replacing the Amals with Mikunis at rebuild time.
This made the bikes into nightmares to restart when warm, but it did sell a lot of Grosset Estarts!
I don't know what I'm doing wrong but the Amals work just fine for me, they are no trouble at all and the bikes start very easily with Amals.

 
worntorn said:
I haven't done any work at all to get my Commando running right with Amals. It came that way 20 years ago and I haven't touched them.
I have Amals on several other bikes as well, same deal there.
I had new Mikuni VMs on a Vincent. The floats liked to stick on those and the bike was hard starting, as are about ten other Mikuni equipped Vincents I'm familiar with. We had a local Vincent rebuilder who hated Amals and loved Mikunis. He insisted on replacing the Amals with Mikunis at rebuild time.
This made the bikes into nightmares to restart when warm, but it did sell a lot of Grosset Estarts!
I don't know what I'm doing wrong but the Amals work just fine for me, they are no trouble at all and the bikes start very easily with Amals.

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I much prefer the tickler on an Amal carb for starting
I reluctantly removed my single mikuni and refitted twin amals when my knee started to go
I only had a few kicks in me before I had to give up
And with the big 40 mm it took a fair amount of kicks throttle closed to get some life
But the amals just needed fully flooding and a bit of throttle and away it'd go 1st or second kick
It was a great relief to go back to the single mikuni once I fitted the electric starter
 
maaseyracer said:
The issue with Amals is not that they can run well. It is the amount of work it takes to make them work right. You are better off buying chinese PWK copies than the amals because they take the same amount of work to get a reliable product after all the work you put in to get them to work right. Plus with the PWK knock offs if something happens it is $20 to $60 to replace them. Amals are closing in on the price of keihin CRS for an inferior product. Tunability is so limited on Amal carbs I am not sure why anyone even bothers with them. The mikuni VM is probably the best value out there, plus with the VM there is an aftermarket to get faster air speed and atomization through the carb. Sadly fitting dual Mikuni VM in a Norton is just not on the table.
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I went down the PWK way with Jims set up for my bike, but after 12 years on the Norton and having sticking floats on and off in those 12 years I had enough, Jim was very helpful in trying to solve the sticking floats but decided to go back to the Amals as I never did have any problems at all with them except for when I decided to go down the PWK way I did have a few running issues but pulling them out of storage and finding the blocked pilot jet in one carb as in the 40 years of running Amals I never had that problem before, yes the original Amals wore out even with worn slides the Norton ran well and always started easy, but just wouldn't idle right with the worn slides.
My Norton with the PWKs were jetted right for my hot motor by Jim and it fired up first kick when I put them on and the Norton ran good, but going back to my Amals my Norton is pulling even better and having that tickler makes things a lot easier, with the PWKs both carbs had the enricher lever on the right and was so hard getting to the left enricher to start on cold mornings, and pulling off the bowls when the bike kept flooding from a sticking float was a task in itself, no the Amals are so much easier and have less problems with them, just replace the jets and needle every so often as the jets wear from vibrations but its such an easy job to do, part of long term maintenance as all carbs need.
I have never had any problem with keeping them tuned once set they stay set unless the rubber O rings wear on the mixture and idle screws, getting the slides to lift at the same time is a simple job and easy to tune each carb to each cylinder and never over tighten the screws on the top of the carb, I got rid of the chokes very early in the life of my Norton as I got sick of people closing the lever on the handle bars thinking my choke was on, people just can't help themselves.
My problem now is getting use to when my carbs need to be tickled, been so long without doing that lol, but with running I can putter around the suburbs and when I need to open the throttle it has no hesitation at all and will go from slow to full revs without missing a beat, but the Joe Hunt maggie helps with that with its big fat spark.
I think most just give up on Amals, but my Norton runs so great with them, so what if they need a little maintenance every so many years, all about general maintenance anyway and they are so simple to work on, refitting the bowls on the PWK carbs was a prick of a job compared to the Amals, I am glad I never got rid of my old Amals.
With the Joe Hunt my bike starts easy, idle smoothly even with the 2S cam and just runs great, trying different things is good but spending big bucks on something my Norton didn't need in the first place and as I say the Amals work so well with the Joe Hunt maggie, they are meant for each other.

Ashley
 
Amals are simple carburetors to set up. There's not much to them.

The 930's although functioning as good as Amals function when I replaced them were a bit too small after I had some engine work done in the early 1990's. I did not putt around on my Norton then. Lots of testosterone still in the tank. I wanted and expected more from the engine. Mikuni 34mm VM carburetors worked better for that set up. I could have stuck with the Mikuni carburetors, but got a bug up my rear to try the bigger Keihin FCRs for my later engine modifications. The FCRs are a good step up for my engine and other supporting parts, but illegal for vintage racing and not particularly cheap. I don't race. I'm just saying they are not a good all-around choice if racing is your thing. The 33mm CRS would be better for most folk that don't care about the old Norton OEM look or want to go racing. The CRS would work best with Jim's intake manifolds as Desmopower has done. Or if feeling creative you could make your own intake manifolds.

I'm attempting to stay on the actual topic without sounding like a pecker head. Probably not succeeding here though. lol
 
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