Nikasil coated aluminum Norton cylinders

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comnoz said:
I have no experience with the MAP cylinders. Last time I checked they were still off in the future.

I have had experience with the Maney Nikasil barrels.

I have one pair of 73mm spun cast aluminum liners left if someone want to experiment. They cost about $400.00. Jim
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You are the one who has make Austentic , high nickel content cast iron liners. I understand that you had to machine them out of solid bar which sounds like a horrendous amount of machine work. You ran these at .004" clearance with forged pistons and had excellent results.

Forum readers - The tigher clearances work because the expansion rate of Austentic cast iron is closer to aluminum. So far this seems like the best option - IF YOU COULD GET THE LINERS. According to someone else in this forum they have been available for some other brit bike (BSA Goldstar????) but that info is old or not solid. I know of only one or two companies that make the Austentic cast iron.

http://www.durhamfoundry.com/austenitic ... -iron.html

There are others but the minimums are like 500 lbs or much more - everybody line up and wait your turn.

So there it is dangling out or reach.

The other option is to experiment with getting rid of the distortion associated with alum liners. Note that stock cast iron cylinders have holes between the middle of the cylinders (allowing air to pass through for more cooling and flex) whereas alum cylinders do not (that could be fixed). I have heard that cast iron cylinders will overheat in that area, warp and distort without the holes between the cylinders. Another consideration is something that Ken Canaga mentioned when he noticed that his Yamaha single sleeves slipped in by hand (loose fit) - possibly a way to circumvent distortion but thats a totally experimental idea not tested on Nortons and highly unlikely - but there still could be a work around if someone is clever and determined enough to spend the time making mistakes until he discovers it.

Below is a quote from Ken Canaga about Alum Nikasil sleeves in Yamaha 600 singles.

I did a lot of work with 4-stroke Yamaha singles for racing, and typically used ~.004" interference fit for iron liners in aluminum cylinders (95 - 100 mm bores). But I noticed that the TT600, which used an aluminum liner (with nikasil bore coating), had only a push fit between liner and cylinder. Presumably, the liner was always a bit hotter than the cylinder, providing a tight fit in operation.
 
I have Nikasil coated alloy barrels on my T140 and they've been fine.

However... I've been running low comp 7.9:1 pistons.
With a ported head, 32mm carbs and Spitfire cams is goes just great - very quiet too, once the valve clearances are sorted (Les Harris never gave any!).
Maybe a trawl of the Triumph forums would yield some more info - beyond some stripping of threads when overtorqued I've seen nothing negative about them.

Not Norton I know, but does prove a Brit twin with very little meat between the cylinders can be a viable proposition.
 
B+Bogus said:
I have Nikasil coated alloy barrels on my T140 and they've been fine.

However... I've been running low comp 7.9:1 pistons.
With a ported head, 32mm carbs and Spitfire cams is goes just great - very quiet too, once the valve clearances are sorted (Les Harris never gave any!).
Maybe a trawl of the Triumph forums would yield some more info - beyond some stripping of threads when overtorqued I've seen nothing negative about them.

Not Norton I know, but does prove a Brit twin with very little meat between the cylinders can be a viable proposition.
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Who makes em and are there any vents between the cylinders?
 
B+Bogus said:
jseng1 said:
Who makes em and are there any vents between the cylinders?
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Gilardoni on behalf of LF Harris Triumph... back in the mid '80s

http://s104.photobucket.com/user/windingroadrider/media/IMG_1005.jpg.html
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The Triumph has deeper cooling between the cylinders and the center bolts are closer in. Less material between the cylinders may mean less distortion. But I'm not clear whether or not one piece cast & Nikasiled alloy cylinders have been tried.

Nikasil coated aluminum Norton cylinders
 
Gavin over at Britbike is running new A65 oversized alloy Nikasil cylinders

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... Post541665

One of his recent posts after a good running in mileage shows his compression test

In at the LBS today , their was a T140 on the bench that had 140 psi on the compression tester, checked the BSA on the same gauge, warm motor , throttle wide open, 6 kicks, 200 psi each side!?.

I don't believe the figures , will check on my own gauge.
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Full alloy casting, no liner with plating direct onto casting.
 
Matchless said:
No solid info I'm afraid, but Steve Maney has tried them at some point. I mentioned to him that I would like some. He said they were more trouble than they were worth. BMW didn't seem to have any problems with them on Airheads though.
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Bmw and nickelsil bore problems are not new to this company, way back in 1997 there were problems with their cars, which are water-cooled by the way and that they got the fuel manufactures to change their fuel for the second time in history. It made news in the National press and the motoring programs at the time.
There are many rumours about the fate of the M60 engine, but only one is true. The engines have been known to suffer damage to the cylinder bores from the excessive amounts of sulphur in the US fuels. Nickelsil bores are common on racing two strokes and as I found out to my cost they suffer excessive wear just above the exhaust ports, but that is another story.
IMO it’s not just excessive amounts of high Sulphur that can do the damage, but you are plating , like chrome, onto an alloy surface, the bore needs to be ground, then plated PDQ because once alloy is exposed to the atmosphere a harden skin starts to form on the surface. Ask any alloy welder who weld with TIG or MIG why the file/grind the alloy surface prior to welding.
What's wrong with the V8 ?;

http://www.e38.org/koalamotorsport/v8shortblock.htm

http://www.meeknet.co.uk/E32/Nikasil.htm

Nikasil is a manufacturing process that was used by BMW to turn the relatively soft aluminium cylinder bores into a bearing surface. This process involved impregnating the bores with a Nickel-Silicone compound which chemically bonds with the Aluminium bore surface. The resultant bore has exceptional wear-resistance, much superior to the standard Iron liner.
Unfortunately, the high Sulphur content of some fuels (not necessarily the cheapest) broke-down the chemical bond resulting in a bore that was essentially machined aluminium. Where this problem occurred the piston rings would rapidly wear away the cylinder bore to a point where compression was lost. Once compression was lost the engine would fail to tick-over smoothly and power-output would reduce. Most noticeably, the car would become very difficult to start as the lack of compression at cranking speeds would not produce combustion. The cure (as is so often quoted) is to replace the short block; there is no chance of reconditioning the bores. The usual advice was to look out for V8's that rocked at tick-over or that smoked when started.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=bmw+nickel ... rsationid=
 
Jaguar 4 litre V8s had the same problem. This was fixed by reverting to iron liners. BMW , Audi & others are now casting some blocks in Alusil. This does away with liners all together. Surely if you want to make ally barrels this is worth looking into.
 
I think I've got the solution for all aluminum Norton cylinders with Nikasil coated bores. I'm looking for someone who has tried the all aluminum Norton cylinders and ran into problems (contact me by PM). There is a way to get rid of the distortion and have round cylinders under operating conditions. Its a unique process and as far as I know - no one has employed it with all aluminum Norton cylinders.
 
My idea is to hone the cylinders with bore plates while they are heated up to operating temp. So I called some sleeving/boring outfits and learned that what is needed is a "HOT HONE" This is a final process after the Nicasil has been plated onto the bore. Hot honing the cylinders when they are hot will correct things by taking out the distortion so the bores will be round at operating temp (Nascar technology). The Nikasil coating is approx .006 to .008" thick and the final honing takes .001 or .002 off of this (approx numbers). Bore Tech in Ohio can perform this job and supply the liners as well (6061 or 3056 material). Their fees are affordable with liners at $280 for two sleeves. And $325 for plating them both. I don't have the exact cost for the hot honing and extra labor involved (they will need you to supply bore plates). Note that it takes a diamond hone for the Nikasil plating (this tool costs approx $1200). Also - Boretech are the same people who can carbide impregnate iron cylinders and iron sleeves in Alum cylinders for longer life. Do it yourselfers will need the diamond hone, an oven and a laser surface temp reader (got mine from Sears).

Temps:
The cylinder temp runs around 250 Deg F. Long idles in hot weather can be around 300. More input would be appreciated.

This is good news because it means that we can tighten up clearances with stronger lighter forged pistons and benefit from the high milage, better cooling and hopefully better performance offered by all aluminum, Nikasil cylinders. The other question is - what about all aluminum cylinders w/o sleeves. If 6006 billet works with nikasil plating (they say it does) and if someone is already doing this (there are rumors) then lets hear about it. If there is distortion then give it the HOT HONE technique and everything should be perfect.
 
Based on all the info on this thread the full cast barrels look to be the best way to go. Full cast alloy barrels with the Nikasil plated directly on to the barrels seem to be working on A65's, T140's, T120's and Tridents, all the problem Commando bores are alloy liners in an alloy barrel. Would be good to know why but even without knowing why it looks the best route to go.
 
kommando said:
Based on all the info on this thread the full cast barrels look to be the best way to go. Full cast alloy barrels with the Nikasil plated directly on to the barrels seem to be working on A65's, T140's, T120's and Tridents, all the problem Commando bores are alloy liners in an alloy barrel. Would be good to know why but even without knowing why it looks the best route to go.
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I think that even Alloy cylinders without liners may need to be hot HOT HONED (with bore plates) to avoid the distortion that occurs where the bores are closest. Regardless - the Maney cylinders are already here so the first successful sleeving & Nikasil coating will probably involve those. The HOT HONE technique was spearheaded by the NASCAR people who heat up the blocks before final bore honing. If anyone is ready to jump on this then I would like you to contact me so I can follow the progress. I could (may) try it myself on my Maney cylinders but it runs so well already and the leakdown is so tight that I'd like to leave it as is. I think this is an important upgrade and someone needs to lead the way.
 
Hi Jim , I have a set of 850 alloy barrels made by jean Noel Gindrat ( French Yellow peril) , they are brand new , it was at the start a plain rough casting which we had bored , milled, drilled (just missing now the inserts, as Ludwig told me to make them in alloy-bronze) etc... in order to have them nikasiled, but they are still on the shelf, I had asked what kind of alloy it was to JNG , and he said to me they are the "right" grade (his previous wer not up to the task), he just advised to me not to overtighen the through bolts ( i had the proper torque figs somewhere!!)...but that will be a challenge to have them sent to you ..?
 
Its not going to be easy. Hot honing is usually done on watercooled cylinders where hot liquid is pumped through the water jackets during the honing process. So this means inventing your own heating system for air cooled cylinders - picture 8 adjustable propane torch nozzles positioned around your cylinders with a helper ready with the laser temp reader to monitor the heat. To remove distortion the Nikasil coating has to be thick. Then you need the $1200 diamond hone. Sound like fun?
 
E&V engineering in Michigan supply nikasil lined alloy barrels for A65 BSA at $1700 a shot
 
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