All Aluminum Nikasil cylinders

Matchless · Feb 1, 2016

The Ally barrels that Norvil sell look like the standard 850 pattern & use iron liners. I saw a set ten years ago & they did look very nice. As for the quality I have no idea.

Martyn.

Matt Spencer · Feb 1, 2016

Not entirely Ar elephant , but put it on just to confuse the issue .

as ive just tripped overit.

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/show ... 79&page=14

[/http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/sputhester/SputheCB2.jpgimg]

[img][/http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/sputhester/SputheCB3-1.jpgimg]

[img][/http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/sputhester/SputheCB4.jpgimg]

[img][/http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/sputhester/SputheCB5.jpgimg]

And the performance test ( Aluminum steamroller ) again , just for luck . :twisted: in vivid tecnocolour .

[url=http://www.counterman.net/v-articles/aluminumsteamroller.pdf]http://www.counterman.net/v-articles/al ... roller.pdf[/url]

Matt Spencer · Feb 1, 2016

That's a job for someone who's into casting.

These damn commies are into muddle aircraft stuff , they call it PLASMA COATING . electrolicly ( lots of electrickery ) depositing . Aerospace stuff .

While Nortons arnt their cup of tea , theyd take it on. dunno about the economics . But Top line workmanship , to microns , etc .

thisis what they call; A B C ( alumn. ( Sil ) piston . Chromed Brass liner . But I was piddling with my A A C ( Alum ( Sil ) piston . ( HARD ) Chromed Alumn. Liner .
only last night .
Done at the Moscow Model Yacht Club .
Untill they got the Electric Bill .

So They Say . Likely the usual tripe .
But Thyre PLASMA Coated, at least in the case of A A C , which is now common .

Henry Nelson , in the U.S. could put you onto it . His Engines have won
World Champs more than once . He came up with A A C around 1980 .

worth a yarn , by appointment , off peak .

[/NELSON COMPETITION ENGINES
121 Pebble Creek Lane
Zelienpole, PA 16063
Manufacturer of NELSON Racing Engines and parts, FAI Pans for F2A & FIC Custom Button Heads, OS65 piston and cylinder sets, many other specialty engine items. (Henry Nelson) Phone: 724-538- 5282
e-mail: nelcomp
@fyi
.netquote]

Model aeroplane turkeys set up their own ' hard chrome plating ' baths . but theyre TOXIC . and I Think , what You WANT , is PLASMA COATING , perhaps .

these guys'd put you onto the plasma trip ; http://www.technohobby.com.ua/en
they almost speak English .

P.S. , in Dies , theres HARd , and SOFt dies . & centrifugal ones etc , gravity is preferred by some , Nelson'l explain there .

Danno · Feb 1, 2016

Matt Spencer said:
Not entirely Ar elephant , but put it on just to confuse the issue . as ive just tripped overit.

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/show ... 79&page=14

And the performance test ( Aluminum steamroller ) again , just for luck . :twisted: in vivid tecnocolour .

http://www.counterman.net/v-articles/al ... roller.pdf

Apparently the /] was on the wrong end of the image codes?

jseng1 · Feb 7, 2016

There seems to be a lack of ambition to come out with all Alum Nikasiled cylinders for Nortons. Steve Maney claims to have done it and found no distortion, but didn't see any economic advantage and decided to save $. Other than that I know of only one other attempt with an earlier alloy - that wasn't perfectly successful.

Note that in my tests mentioned at the beginning of this thread - the iron lined Alum Maney cylinders actually distorted more than the all alum cylinders.

One engine builder is supposedly pursuing this. Other's are playing it safe and watching from the sidelines. If I feel like blowing $1000 on this experiment - I know what to do.

Fullauto · Feb 7, 2016

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You stump up for the development and a number of people are on the sidelines waiting to steal the ideas and move ahead. But in this economic climate, I'm stepping aside for the moment even after putting 25 grand into it. With projected sales it's not worth the effort.

lcrken · Feb 7, 2016

jseng1 said:
There seems to be a lack of ambition to come out with all Alum Nikasiled cylinders for Nortons. Steve Maney claims to have done it and found no distortion, but didn't see any economic advantage and decided to save $. Other than that I know of only one other attempt with an earlier alloy - that wasn't perfectly successful.

Note that in my tests mentioned at the beginning of this thread - the iron lined Alum Maney cylinders actually distorted more than the all alum cylinders.

One engine builder is supposedly pursuing this. Other's are playing it safe and watching from the sidelines. If I feel like blowing $1000 on this experiment - I know what to do.

Not to beat a dead horse, Jim, but, as I said previously in this thread, the cylinders I loaned you that you used for the test were Robertson cylinders, not Maney. There are differences, and the quality of Steve's is superior. Just trying to be fair to Steve.

Ken

lcrken · Mar 21, 2016

I finally got in touch with Kenny Dreer again, and got some more info on his alloy cylinders. He said they originally had some problems with them, but solved it by changing to a different coating company. After they started sending them to Millenium Technologies

http://www.mt-llc.com/

for their Nickel Silicon Carbide (NCS) coating, and used the rings they recommended, they had no more problems. He said they used standard JE XC7900 rings, which have a chrome faced carbon steel top ring, phosphate coated iron second ring, and chrome faced carbon steel oil ring (SS50U style, with two rails and an expander). These are the same rings I use in some of my JE pistons for cast iron cylinders/liners. Kenny said they work well with both iron and NCS coated aluminum cylinders. He said they originally tried Total Seal rings, as recommended by the first coating house they went to, and they were a total failure with the coated alloy cylinders. I asked him about bore distortion at the top due to the close spacing of the bores, and he said that wasn't a problem. He said they originally honed them with bore plates, but found they didn't need them. He said they didn't have any wear problems with the combination above, along with the custom JE pistons they used. They had good ring seal with no distortion at the top of the bore, and no problems with excessive piston wear.

Just passing information along, but it does sound encouraging for anyone thinking about developing a new design of alloy cylinders for Nortons.

Ken

jseng1 · Mar 22, 2016

lcrken said:
I finally got in touch with Kenny Dreer again, and got some more info on his alloy cylinders. He said they originally had some problems with them, but solved it by changing to a different coating company. After they started sending them to Millenium Technologies

http://www.mt-llc.com/

for their Nickel Silicon Carbide (NCS) coating, and used the rings they recommended, they had no more problems. He said they used standard JE XC7900 rings, which have a chrome faced carbon steel top ring, phosphate coated iron second ring, and chrome faced carbon steel oil ring (SS50U style, with two rails and an expander). These are the same rings I use in some of my JE pistons for cast iron cylinders/liners. Kenny said they work well with both iron and NCS coated aluminum cylinders. He said they originally tried Total Seal rings, as recommended by the first coating house they went to, and they were a total failure with the coated alloy cylinders. I asked him about bore distortion at the top due to the close spacing of the bores, and he said that wasn't a problem. He said they originally honed them with bore plates, but found they didn't need them. He said they didn't have any wear problems with the combination above, along with the custom JE pistons they used. They had good ring seal with no distortion at the top of the bore, and no problems with excessive piston wear.

Just passing information along, but it does sound encouraging for anyone thinking about developing a new design of alloy cylinders for Nortons.

Ken

Ok - I'm ready for alloy cylinders. I am I going to have to do this on my own? No one else is stepping up.

What was the problem with the total seal rings? Something must have been different. The rings I got from total seal seemed almost identical to the JE rings. Looking at your notes it sounds like the problem was with the 1st coating company. Also - what about the thin alum bore skirt protruding from the bottom of the cylinders?

lcrken · Sep 21, 2016

jseng1 said:
Ok - I'm ready for alloy cylinders. I am I going to have to do this on my own? No one else is stepping up.

What was the problem with the total seal rings? Something must have been different. The rings I got from total seal seemed almost identical to the JE rings. Looking at your notes it sounds like the problem was with the 1st coating company. Also - what about the thin alum bore skirt protruding from the bottom of the cylinders?

Total Seal sources rings from a lot of sources. They supply conventional rings as well as their two piece total seal rings. I think Kenny was using the two piece rings, and from what you are describing, yours were conventional designs, similar to the standard JE rings I mentioned. I don't know what the problem was that he had with them.

The bore that protrudes below the base is not really that thin, and I don't see why it would cause any problems.

I hope you decide to go ahead with the Nikasil cylinder project. It seems like something that should work. On the other hand, as I'm sure you are aware, others have tried it without success, so there are challenges.

Ken

nickguzzi · Sep 22, 2016

If I may offer an example from outside the Norton fold, big - 700cc - guzzi's were originally designed with iron liners. When the bore was later increased to make them an 850cc, guzzi adopted chrome bores - quite a popular option back in the 70's.
The larger yet 950cc versions reverted to iron liners, but then switched to nikasil (later using their their own proprietary system called "Nikguzzil" after some disagreement with piston and barrel supplier Gilardoni).

The nub is that the wall thickness for the spigot ended up about 3mm/1/8th". Was never a problem for me, and I haven't heard of it being a problem for others either.

The 1100cc and 1200cc bikes used the later type big mouth crankcases which were introduced with mk111 LeMans with the squared barrel fins and heads. That bike was still only 950cc though.

Fullauto · Sep 22, 2016

nickguzzi said:
If I may offer an example from outside the Norton fold, big - 700cc - guzzi's were originally designed with iron liners. When the bore was later increased to make them an 850cc, guzzi adopted chrome bores - quite a popular option back in the 70's.
The larger yet 950cc versions reverted to iron liners, but then switched to nikasil (later using their their own proprietary system called "Nikguzzil" after some disagreement with piston and barrel supplier Gilardoni).

The nub is that the wall thickness for the spigot ended up about 3mm/1/8th". Was never a problem for me, and I haven't heard of it being a problem for others either.

The 1100cc and 1200cc bikes used the later type big mouth crankcases which were introduced with mk111 LeMans with the squared barrel fins and heads. That bike was still only 950cc though.

+

The difference is that the Guzzi has somewhat more symmetrical cylinders offering more even expansion.

nickguzzi · Sep 22, 2016

That is true.^^^^ But starting from scratch for a Norton, would it not be possible to strengthen/stiffen the base flange to reduce distortion affecting the spigots? Or is there a more fundamental problem?

Again my experience is with singles. Lots of old style air cooled two strokes have extremely asymmetrical cylinders and manage on similar meagre amounts. Usually with an original cast iron cylinder too, but there are alloy/nickasil versions made.
Friends who attempt to tune them, seize them fairly regularly, but never have the spigot drop off. Bored to 70mm (the max before you run into the stud threads) from the original 64mm, the spigot is even thinner.

Fullauto · Sep 22, 2016

nickguzzi said:
That is true.^^^^ But starting from scratch for a Norton, would it not be possible to strengthen/stiffen the base flange to reduce distortion affecting the spigots? Or is there a more fundamental problem?

Again my experience is with singles. Lots of old style air cooled two strokes have extremely asymmetrical cylinders and manage on similar meagre amounts. Usually with an original cast iron cylinder too, but there are alloy/nickasil versions made.
Friends who attempt to tune them, seize them fairly regularly, but never have the spigot drop off. Bored to 70mm (the max before you run into the stud threads) from the original 64mm, the spigot is even thinner.

Only 750 barrels have the flange. 850 barrels are somewhat more rigid but still suffer the same problem. I've spent a lot of money on this and when it becomes available, the money that is, I'll be spending more.

Madnorton · Sep 22, 2016

It might be worth working out the cost of these the failure rate of castings maybe high even if x-rayed and HIP'd, I know many have tried and the casting and machining to fit liners was the easy part. Fitting a liner made the success rate in end product higher and removed a defect that some may discover when they try this especially with barrels that are going to be 850. I'm sure some of you know and can talk to some of those who tried making standard alloy barrels many years ago and find out why they dropped the idea.

I would very much like a set of alloy barrels, along with lighter crank, slipper pistons etc to make a very light motor that looks identical but built with modern materials and equipment. I take my hat off for those who are going to try, and best of luck.

jseng1 · Sep 22, 2016

I think it can be done no problem. Its been done successfully with Triumphs (see below). I'm tempted to give it a go this winter - but with heat treated alloy cylinders and nikasil sleeves. The problem is that my motor runs so well as is that I hate to mess with it.

Fast Eddie · Sep 23, 2016

Fullauto said:
nickguzzi said:

That is true.^^^^ But starting from scratch for a Norton, would it not be possible to strengthen/stiffen the base flange to reduce distortion affecting the spigots? Or is there a more fundamental problem?

Again my experience is with singles. Lots of old style air cooled two strokes have extremely asymmetrical cylinders and manage on similar meagre amounts. Usually with an original cast iron cylinder too, but there are alloy/nickasil versions made.
Friends who attempt to tune them, seize them fairly regularly, but never have the spigot drop off. Bored to 70mm (the max before you run into the stud threads) from the original 64mm, the spigot is even thinner.

Click to expand...

Only 750 barrels have the flange. 850 barrels are somewhat more rigid but still suffer the same problem. I've spent a lot of money on this and when it becomes available, the money that is, I'll be spending more.

I hope you do so Ken. The Gilardoni barrels in the pic shown by JS prove how well this could work even on these old air cooled motors. I had some Gilardoni barrels on an 8 valve Triumph TSS that I caned mercilessly, and toured Europe with, and commuted on, and they are still going strong today long after I sold the bike.

All Aluminum Nikasil cylinders

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