New Bonnie's, Commando's, etc

Like many, I still eagerly await the weight and power figures for the new T120s and Thruxton's. also like many, I do unfortunately (and hopefully wrongly) expect to be disappointed. After all, the new 900 makes 55bhp. Even if you assume the 33% extra displacement gave 33% more power, you've still only got 73bhp...

Which might not sound bad to some, but its poor against its contemporaries. Both the Guzzi Griso and BMW R nine T are around 110 BHP and over 85 ft lbs torque and these are also both air cooled 1200 (ish) cc four stroke twins.

So gents, what do y'all think of the offerings within this genre? Here's my own:

Norton:
Good points: style, sound, heritage, quality of components, handling, braking and 'OK' power.
Negative points: too many stories of quality issues and failures, ditto ref poor level of support, high price and only having 'OK' power.

Guzzi Griso:
Good: looks (from some angles), handling, braking, sound, low and medium end power, high end power.
Negative: looks (from some other angles), weight, ugliest exhaust system ever.

Ducati Monster 1200:
Good: power, handling, braking, weight, sound.
Negative: ugly 'plumbers nightmare' styling, radical riding position, poor pillion 'accommodation'.

BMW R nine T:
Good: build quality, looks, sound (at low speed), mid and high rpm power, handling, braking.
Bad: sound (no engine or exhaust sound at higher speeds), lack of low end grunt, bland (very lacking in any tactile appeal, feels like an average UJM).

Triumph 1200 twins:
Good: TBD
Bad: TBD

For me, the Garner Commando is a no due to the price and bad stories (I know there are good stories, but the balance is still very negative). The Ducati is a no as its, too radical (maybe I would have 20 years ago). I rode an R nine T recently and was really disappointed, its just so bland and un interesting as soon as you get out of town, performance is great, but its just dull.

So I hope to get a ride on a Griso soon... And eagerly await the Triumph 1200's evaluation.

Overall, it seems to me that a motorcycle designed to produce 100bhp with all other design effort put into max low end grunt and overall light weight would be fabulous, and has as yet eluded all motorcycle designers abilities !

Please do join in ...

Nigel, have you read any of the owner accounts on the new Street Twin? The bikes are in California now and the reception has been very positive. A couple of t100 owners have tried the new 900 and say that it blows their 68 HP t100 away for acceleration, braking and handling. The power curve of the Street Twin is very similar (but a bit greater in the middle) to a bike you are quite familiar with- the 850 Commando.
Moving up to the T120 one might expect a simple 33% more thrust just from the displacement, except that engine also gets dual throttle bodies rather than a single as on the 900. In any case, imagine an 850 Commando with some extra thrust, then add 33% to that. How much more power do you need?

If you do need more the Thruxton is going to be both more powerful and lighter than the T120. It gets a lighter crank, hotter cam, bigger valves and higher compression over the T120 1200. I don't think there will be any power shortage here.
The UK site shows 120 NM torque at 4950 revs for the Thruxton. I verified this number with Customer Service at Hinckley.
This means the Thruxton is already producing 83.5 HP at just 4950 revs and it revs to 7,000. Today's litre class Sportbikes typically make 40-50 HP at this rpm.
If this still is not enough power there is a factory race kit offered (cat delete and bigger cam) that adds another 15 hp, several NM torque and drops about 12 lbs off the bike.

I'm waiting for Triumph to offer me that job in sales I so deserve.


Btw, I rode both a 2010 r1200rt BMW and a 2002 moto Guzzi Lemans 1100 last summer. I found the BMW to be very vibratory under acceleration, but the Guzzi was even worse.
I guess from riding my Triumph Daytona Triple I was under the illusion that modern bikes are all smoother than Vintage bikes. It was a bit of a shock to learn that the opposite was true for these two. Also, very clunky transmission on the BMW and lots of low speed lash in the shaft drive setup, apparently a/common problem with shafties.

Glen

worntorn said:

Nigel, have you read any of the owner accounts on the new Street Twin? The bikes are in California now and the reception has been very positive. A couple of t100 owners have tried the new 900 and say that it blows their 68 HP t100 away for acceleration, braking and handling. The power curve of the Street Twin is very similar (but a bit greater in the middle) to a bike you are quite familiar with- the 850 Commando.
Moving up to the T120 one might expect a simple 33% more thrust just from the displacement, except that engine also gets dual throttle bodies rather than a single as on the 900. In any case, imagine an 850 Commando with some extra thrust, then add 33% to that. How much more power do you need?

If you do need more the Thruxton is going to be both more powerful and lighter than the T120. It gets a lighter crank, hotter cam, bigger valves and higher compression over the T120 1200. I don't think there will be any power shortage here.
The UK site shows 120 NM torque at 4950 revs for the Thruxton. I verified this number with Customer Service at Hinkley.
This means the Thruxton is already producing 83.5 HP at just 4950 revs and it revs to 7,000. Today's litre class Sportbikes typically make 40-50 HP at this rpm.
If this still is not enough power there is a factory race kit offered (cat delete and bigger cam) that adds another 15 hp, several NM torque and drops about 12 lbs off the bike.

I'm waiting for Triumph to offer me that job in sales that I so deserve.

Click to expand...

I'm a tad confused by you having to 'confirm with customer service' Glen... I though that was you...!

Well, I haven't ridden a Street Twin yet, but I am aware of the rollicking good reports its had... most of which were written when Triumph launched it to the press on roads that particularly suited its power delivery! Its torque is clearly impressive, but 55bhp and 200kg ain't gonna be overly exciting on bigger, faster roads.

I also read the back to back test against an 865 Bonnie recently which outgunned the street twin every time in the higher rev range. And 865 is hardly famed for being outrageously powerful... So, frankly, the 1200 has to seriously embarrass the 900 in order to be a contender.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess, specs will be released on 29th Feb I read somewhere, is that correct?

But... My quest in this thread was more to explore folks opinions on the competition in this genre...

Fast Eddie said:

worntorn said:

Nigel, have you read any of the owner accounts on the new Street Twin? The bikes are in California now and the reception has been very positive. A couple of t100 owners have tried the new 900 and say that it blows their 68 HP t100 away for acceleration, braking and handling. The power curve of the Street Twin is very similar (but a bit greater in the middle) to a bike you are quite familiar with- the 850 Commando.
Moving up to the T120 one might expect a simple 33% more thrust just from the displacement, except that engine also gets dual throttle bodies rather than a single as on the 900. In any case, imagine an 850 Commando with some extra thrust, then add 33% to that. How much more power do you need?

If you do need more the Thruxton is going to be both more powerful and lighter than the T120. It gets a lighter crank, hotter cam, bigger valves and higher compression over the T120 1200. I don't think there will be any power shortage here.
The UK site shows 120 NM torque at 4950 revs for the Thruxton. I verified this number with Customer Service at Hinkley.
This means the Thruxton is already producing 83.5 HP at just 4950 revs and it revs to 7,000. Today's litre class Sportbikes typically make 40-50 HP at this rpm.
If this still is not enough power there is a factory race kit offered (cat delete and bigger cam) that adds another 15 hp, several NM torque and drops about 12 lbs off the bike.

I'm waiting for Triumph to offer me that job in sales that I so deserve.

Click to expand...

I'm a tad confused by you having to 'confirm with customer service' Glen... I though that was you...!

Well, I haven't ridden a Street Twin yet, but I am aware of the rollicking good reports its had... most of which were written when Triumph launched it to the press on roads that particularly suited its power delivery! Its torque is clearly impressive, but 55bhp and 200kg ain't gonna be overly exciting on bigger, faster roads.

I also read the back to back test against an 865 Bonnie recently which outgunned the street twin every time in the higher rev range. And 865 is hardly famed for being outrageously powerful... So, frankly, the 1200 has to seriously embarrass the 900 in order to be a contender.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess, specs will be released on 29th Feb I read somewhere, is that correct?

But... My quest in this thread was more to explore folks opinions on the competition in this genre...

Click to expand...

Regarding your vibration comment, actually it was my gripe that the R nine T was too smooth! I wanted a bit more sensation of sitting on something mechanical and not an i-bike powered by an app !!

[quote="Fast Eddie



Well, I haven't ridden a Street Twin yet, but I am aware of the rollicking good reports its had... most of which were written when Triumph launched it to the press on roads that particularly suited its power delivery! Its torque is clearly impressive, but 55bhp and 200kg ain't gonna be overly exciting on bigger, faster roads.

...[/quote]


55bhp , 59 ft lbs and 200 kgs is pretty much a Commando with a bit of extra torque in the middle. So the 900 is a lot like a modern Commando with ABS braking, Traction control, fuel injection and water cooling for longevity.
The reports from the owners in California have more meaning to me than the positive magazine reports. We all know that magazines publications tend to spin to the positive.
Reports from the California riders say the Street Twin nicely pulls up over the ton, that should be an adequate top end for most?
Yes, full specs on the 1200s on Feb 29.

Glen

worntorn said:

[quote="Fast Eddie



Well, I haven't ridden a Street Twin yet, but I am aware of the rollicking good reports its had... most of which were written when Triumph launched it to the press on roads that particularly suited its power delivery! Its torque is clearly impressive, but 55bhp and 200kg ain't gonna be overly exciting on bigger, faster roads.

...

Click to expand...

55bhp , 59 ft lbs and 200 kgs is pretty much a Commando with a bit of extra torque in the middle. So the 900 is a lot like a modern Commando with ABS braking, Traction control, fuel injection and water cooling for longevity.
The reports from the owners in California have more meaning to me than the positive magazine reports. We all know that magazines publications tend to spin to the positive.
Reports from the California riders say the Street Twin nicely pulls up over the ton, that should be an adequate top end for most?
Yes, full specs on the 1200s on Feb 29.

Glen[/quote]

I'm not disputing any of those reports Glen, and I think the Street is a nice bike, that will have a large apeal and will justifiably sell in truck loads!

But for me personally, if I want to ride a bike that feels like a Commando with some extra torque (and some extra power)... then I would ride my Commando...!

If I want to ride a 1200cc modern machine, I personally do want more out of it than that.

I'll wait and hope that Triumph deliver this. If not, the Griso currently looks like the closest to my own requirements.

I don't expect or want Triumph to produce a rocket ship, but I do want them to produce something competitive with its contemporaries.

Nigel, I know the Street Twin isn't the bike you would opt for nor would it be my choice. I did think it ironic that one of Rat forum's biggest haters of the Street Twin actually rode one last week and immediately plunked down his credit card.
All of his rants were based on the low Max HP figure and now he can't shut up about how fantastic the bike is.

And it's approximately a modern Commando, which maybe comes back to the thread you had going some weeks ago about your Commando out doing some bikes with greater on paper specs.

I figure add a 1/3 to that very tasty recipe and it should be quite delectable.

Not that there aren't lots of other modern power plants out there that can create a lot of fun. It's just that none of them are sitting in such beautiful surroundings.
The Griso is interesting but a tad heavy at 569 wet and looks are perhaps an acquired taste?

Glen

worntorn said:

Nigel, I know the Street Twin isn't the bike you would opt for nor would it be my choice. I did think it ironic that one of Rat forum's biggest haters of the Street Twin actually rode one last week and immediately plunked down his credit card.
All of his rants were based on the low Max HP figure and now he can't shut up about how fantastic the bike is.

And it's approximately a modern Commando, which maybe comes back to the thread you had going some weeks ago about your Commando out doing some bikes with greater on paper specs.

I figure add a 1/3 to that very tasty recipe and it should be quite delectable.

Not that there aren't lots of other modern power plants out there that can create a lot of fun. It's just that none of them are sitting in such beautiful surroundings.
The Griso is interesting but a tad heavy at 569 wet and looks are perhaps an acquired taste?

Glen

Click to expand...

The RAT guy story is funny, and I guess kinda typical of the over (ill informed) analysis we're all guilty of in this t'internet age!

Indeed, its that kind of low end grunt that you describe that I also want to see in a bike, I just don't want it running out of top end steam too much / too soon!

As to the Griso, from some angles I think it looks awesome in a big brutish way, from others it's either odd or ugly.

It is however, as you say, a touch lardy. And whichever way you look at it, there is simply no excuse for designing a silencer like that!!

Come on Triumph !!

After owning my 2013 Thruxton for 3 years now I have a very big intrest in the new Thruxton R, but there are still so much misimformation at the moment, Triumph themselfs so secret, putting a payment down on a bike without even riding one is a risk with anything and so much misimform poeple on the RAT site doesn't help, it will be late March or April before one lands at my local dealer and there is such a big waitting list for poeple to take one for a test ride so it might be late in the year before I get the chance to ride one for myself.

The truth will come out as soon as there are some on the road and a few report back on how they are, the Thruxton R is the way they should have built all the Thruxtons, I know I had to spend a bit of money to get mine handling the way I wanted it and I am very happy with my 865 motor performance and have taken it well over the TON on many rides with my mates, but I am always looking for that extra gear, but till I ride one of the new Thruxtons I am happy to sit back and take notice when these new Triumph are getting out and about, only time will tell and I look forward to see a report from you Glen when you get your new Thruxton R, hope its as good as it looks.

Ashley

I too am thinking about the new Triumph or Griso. If i end up with the Griso, that exhaust will have to go. I will probably be happy with 2 commandos though, after i get my 750 built. I am considering selling my mk3 to fund a modern bike and if i do it will be Either of the above. To be honest my mk3 keeps up with modern bikes quite well. I just need a back up commando for when the sprag screws up and locks again on mk3 lol.

Jerry Doe said:

I too am thinking about the new Triumph or Griso. If i end up with the Griso, that exhaust will have to go. I will probably be happy with 2 commandos though, after i get my 750 built. I am considering selling my mk3 to fund a modern bike and if i do it will be Either of the above. To be honest my mk3 keeps up with modern bikes quite well. I just need a back up commando for when the sprag screws up and locks again on mk3 lol.

Click to expand...

I go through phases Jerry, it looks like this:

From: I need a modern bike in my shed so I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, without fuss & spend more of my limited free time riding and less wrenching.

To: My modern bike is boring, heavy, complex and I should stick to classics.

Currently, free time for me is at an all time scarcity, so I'm back to the 'more riding / less wrenching' quest!

Its definitely down to one of the following: 1200 Bonnie (type TBD), Guzzi Griso, BMW R nine T.

As some will know, I was leaning towards Harleyism a little while ago, but I seem to have been cured!

Its interesting that there are no Japanese brands in my list. It is certainly not because I am anti Japanese (quite the contrary actually) but they just don't quite manage to satisfy my requirements somehow.

On with the quest...!

Tell me about it. I have the same dilema

The Commando is really fast enough and is a particularly pleasant ride on challenging roads. My BMW R1200Rt riding friend is always hurrying to catch up when the road gets curvy. When we switch bikes, he disappears on the Commando and is in no hurry to give it back.
I bring tools and spares along but have only had to use them once, roadside. Jammed Sprag, sound familiar?
With the modern bike I don't bring tools or spares because I wouldn't know where to start on it. So far no problems. It's an 05 Daytona 955i and, though lovely to ride, is really too fast for the roads, as all modern sportbikes are. This is only a problem because the idiot rider cannot control himself. Speeding tickets are a common occurance.
I'm hoping this new Thruxton R will strike a balance. Several on the Rat site are screaming that it should have well over 100 HP to be a decent bike, I'm thinking 90 or so and bags of torque on a lightish bike is plenty to get into trouble.

Glen

Jerry Doe said:

Tell me about it. I have the same dilema

Click to expand...

Jerry, I assume you'll be testing the new 1200 Triumphs before taking the plunge?

A mate of mine has just taken delivery of his new R nine T sport, its a beauty and doesn't help my patience!

Lets compare notes and decisions as our quest unfolds Jerry.


Glen, I do agree that the Commando is an indecently fast bike for what it is on the right roads. But on faster roads, there's not a cat in hells chance of me staying with my mate on his new R nine T... And trying to will most likely result in large and premature expenditure on new engine internals...!

I had a simple task on my MK3 yesterday, Remove rear wheel for new tire. Spindle was stuck in left bearing. While undoing it, spindle would not come out. It started separating where cush drive is, it would not budge. I then had to hack saw through spindle on right side between caliper carrier and disk. Wheel still would not come out so I had to hack saw with a junior hack saw the other end of spindle off through a small gap. 2+ hours later I had wheel out. I took the wheel to my local Triumph dealer to put new tire on and while I was waiting looked at the 900 Triumphs. They are nice and I was so pissed off with the MK3 wheel I almost bought one right there and then. The new Triumphs are not here until March. My Mrs does not want me to have 3 bikes. Its a sticky situation that I am in, but somehow I see the new Triumph in the garage depending on work this year lol. I am going to test ride one when they get here.

I will be out on my MK3 again after I get the new spindle and I will love it again as it runs so well. Its a love hate thing. One other note is that the Corbin seat you see in my avatar is going away. It is amazingly heavy (without tools) and has contributed to rapid wear of rear tire. I have just put a stock seat on. I need to figure out where to put tools now.

Jerry Doe said:

I had a simple task on my MK3 yesterday, Remove rear wheel for new tire. Spindle was stuck in left bearing. While undoing it, spindle would not come out. It started separating where cush drive is, it would not budge. I then had to hack saw through spindle on right side between caliper carrier and disk. Wheel still would not come out so I had to hack saw with a junior hack saw the other end of spindle off through a small gap. 2+ hours later I had wheel out. I took the wheel to my local Triumph dealer to put new tire on and while I was waiting looked at the 900 Triumphs. They are nice and I was so pissed off with the MK3 wheel I almost bought one right there and then. The new Triumphs are not here until March. My Mrs does not want me to have 3 bikes. Its a sticky situation that I am in, but somehow I see the new Triumph in the garage depending on work this year lol. I am going to test ride one when they get here.

I will be out on my MK3 again after I get the new spindle and I will love it again as it runs so well. Its a love hate thing. One other note is that the Corbin seat you see in my avatar is going away. It is amazingly heavy (without tools) and has contributed to rapid wear of rear tire. I have just put a stock seat on. I need to figure out where to put tools now.

Click to expand...

Its all part of the fun Jerry!

I always carry my tools in what's called a 'poachers bag' - a waxed cotton shoulder bag type thing. I've had it for years. Suddenly however, its cool, apparently it makes me a 'hipster' !!

(Tho I imagine a proper hipster has an I-pad in theirs... Not Whitworth spanners and a hammer)!!

Jerry Doe said:

I had a simple task on my MK3 yesterday, Remove rear wheel for new tire. Spindle was stuck in left bearing. While undoing it, spindle would not come out. It started separating where cush drive is, it would not budge. I then had to hack saw through spindle on right side between caliper carrier and disk. Wheel still would not come out so I had to hack saw with a junior hack saw the other end of spindle off through a small gap. 2+ hours later I had wheel out. I took the wheel to my local Triumph dealer to put new tire on and while I was waiting looked at the 900 Triumphs. They are nice and I was so pissed off with the MK3 wheel I almost bought one right there and then. The new Triumphs are not here until March. My Mrs does not want me to have 3 bikes. Its a sticky situation that I am in, but somehow I see the new Triumph in the garage depending on work this year lol. I am going to test ride one when they get here.

I will be out on my MK3 again after I get the new spindle and I will love it again as it runs so well. Its a love hate thing. One other note is that the Corbin seat you see in my avatar is going away. It is amazingly heavy (without tools) and has contributed to rapid wear of rear tire. I have just put a stock seat on. I need to figure out where to put tools now.

Click to expand...

Jerry,

Maybe you could use the Mk. 3 tooltray that sits across the frame rails to carry your tools, still available as far as I know.

sam