New Amals Replace Mikuni - What a difference!

Hobot · Mar 26, 2014

LOL zappa squared but we do have two hands don't ya know. Light hints of various otherwise foul odors are somehow appealing though and used in many fragrances. Sometimes public forums get like what I heard my jail mates tell me, Central American originals say its like catching crabs down there, no need for a lid on the bucket as when one crab is about to get out the others grab on and drag em back down. Hope we are having fun bickering and bantering till my gizmo gets passed around for final laughs.

phil yates · Mar 26, 2014

I was known in circles as "Fingers Phil". When my then girlfriend discovered why this was so, she removed them for me one night whilst I was drunk and asleep on the lounge. I never even knew she owned an axe!!

I had little choice but to swap to a carburettor requiring no tickling. I couldn't tickle the girls anymore either!!
So on went the Mikuni and "Fingerless Phil" has been happy ever since. I also swapped girlfriends, the old one being tossed in the river along with the Amals!!

concours · Mar 26, 2014

Then there was the Bendix carb on my '74 shovelhead... at 16yo I likened it to a "beer can with a nail hole in the bottom" type of PRIMITIVE mixer... :roll:

phil yates · Mar 26, 2014

concours said:
Then there was the Bendix carb on my '74 shovelhead... at 16yo I likened it to a "beer can with a nail hole in the bottom" type of PRIMITIVE mixer... :roll:

Actually, the early model Fastback I bought some years after my new Combat had blown itself to pieces after I thrashed it relentlessly to death, came with a single Amal carbi. Actually it ran the bike reasonably well. Then I got this brilliant idea of fitting an SU. It was a horrible thing and I threw it in the river into which had gone my last girlfriend.

I haven't tried a beer can with a nail hole in it. This primitive set up sounds more sophisticated than an Amal carburettor and would offer an advanced alternative.

I had to laugh about the story in here where the bloke said his Amal float bowls departed company from the carbi body. Mine used to just unbolt themselves straight off the manifold.

But now that it is mentioned. That was another way we used to sink the Amals, float bowls off and watch the bottom of the needles for the first sign of lift as throttle was ever so carefully opened. I wonder what Biscuit Boy will think about that?

concours · Mar 26, 2014

phil yates said:
concours said:

Then there was the Bendix carb on my '74 shovelhead... at 16yo I likened it to a "beer can with a nail hole in the bottom" type of PRIMITIVE mixer... :roll:

Click to expand...

Actually, the early model Fastback I bought some years after my new Combat had blown itself to pieces after I thrashed it relentlessly to death, came with a single Amal carbi. Actually it ran the bike reasonably well. Then I got this brilliant idea of fitting an SU. It was a horrible thing and I threw it in the river into which had gone my last girlfriend.

I haven't tried a beer can with a nail hole in it. This primitive set up sounds more sophisticated than an Amal carburettor and would offer an advanced alternative.

I had to laugh about the story in here where the bloke said his Amal float bowls departed company from the carbi body. Mine used to just unbolt themselves straight off the manifold.

But now that it is mentioned. That was another way we used to sink the Amals, float bowls off and watch the bottom of the needles for the first sign of lift as throttle was ever so carefully opened. I wonder what Biscuit Boy will think about that?

SU's were a brilliant carb, just elusive to tune... a friend had one on an old ironhead Sporty, ran great, delivered great economy.. 100 miles range on the 2.2 peanut tank, lol

concours · Mar 26, 2014

I've said it before, and it's still stands... if you MUST have the wholesome goodness of a Mik, why not a deep breathing 40, or 44mm VM for the best of both worlds. I've run TWIN 44's on a 530cc two stroke.... with great results. A SINGLE 44 would ROCK a Commando!

Bonwit · Mar 26, 2014

dave M said:
The other thing I have found is to screw on the metal locating rings for the boots with the flange facing forward, it seems somewhat counter- intuitive but gives a few mm extra clearance and every bit helps in this tight environment.

Brilliant idea! Wish I'd thought of it at the time.

Thanks!

Biscuit · Mar 26, 2014

Sorry it took a day to get back , interesting thread don't you think mr. yates? Read your post from this morning, thought it might have some meat in it but realized 2/3 of it were only childish attacks on me and really nothing about carbs, tuning them or much to do about bikes at all. The Norton I have now actually is the only one I've ever owned, bought new in '75. It still has original carbs that have been sleeved. It's pretty much stock but with electronic ignition. There was a time in the mid '80's when the bike was running shall we say less than great. In an attempt to make it less frustrating I actually bought and installed a single 34mm Mikuni, and along with the new ignition. It actually ran pretty well. I felt it had lost a some of it's character though, not the same snap, a bit lazy if you will. So I decided to make a concerted effort to learn how stock carbs work and how to tune/balance them (tuning and balancing carburetors is tuning skippy). Unlike yourself I did not get frustrated with this apparently, to you, daunting endeavor. I don't know whether you ordered that Norton from Mr. Lynch as it was built, or after speaking with you, and hearing you gripe about your personal past failed attempts of living with twin carbs, he recommended a single Mikuni fitment to be better for both of you in the long run.
I'm pretty sure a lot of members have faster bikes than mine and yours with a lot of different makes of carbs, single and twin Amal's, single and twin Mikuni's, etc, etc. A lot of the members choose their mixers accordingly, to work best for their engines needs. Once again if you will, go back and READ Bonwit's original post. He is very pleased with the new carb setup on HIS bike, and so after his comment, to basically advise him to just tear off those new carbs and replace with a single Mikuni because that's what works ok for you is just arrogant. And by the way the, the "real men" crack was just a "tongue in cheek" joke, didn't think it would hit a nerve like that. Did you not see the laughing smiley face? :lol: :roll: . That's it for me. Get your last smart remark in now. Cheers, with apologies to Bonwit.

Bonwit · Mar 26, 2014

phil yates said:
There is NO performance improvement that I can perceive with twin Amals, except top end that I mentioned. Bonwit may have psyched himself into this belief. I want to know how he keeps them in synch. My conclusion is that you can't, not for very long. Back in the very early 70's we used to use cigarette papers to indicate the first slide movement. It worked brilliantly for all of five minutes riding. Then out they would go again.

You may think I psyched myself into believing the Amals provided higher performance, but you would be wrong. The improvement was obvious, thank you. Not dramatic, not day-and-night, but obvious. You do realize that these are not the same Amals that came with our bikes, right? The new Amal Premier is improved. Better casting, more substantial anodized slide, ethanol resistant float, reengineered idle circuit.

As for keeping them in balance, I can't say, as I haven't had them on a week. But it's unclear to me how they could mystically throw themselves out of balance. I'm guessing you had a cable problem. Initially, I had an issue where one of the short throttle cables pulled away from the junction box and jammed which caused a big imbalance. It seems that the short length and odd routing between the two carbs and the junction was the culprit. I solved it by tie-wrapping the junction box and securing the cables so they were better supported. So far so good.

I haven't had time to do much riding this week, but on my way out the door each morning I have taken a moment to follow the suggestions I've received here on proper starting technique - mastering the art of the tickle. I'd give it a try, just daring it not to start the first kick. It put a smile on my face every time. . . and no gas on my finger!

To each his own, but one of the pleasures I get from owning classic bikes is to strive to make them appear as close to original as I can. I understand that this is not everyone's goal. The Mikuni is a fine carburetor, but it just doesn't look right to me so I fixed it. I was prepared for the possibility that I may be causing headaches for myself, but now I'm thrilled to discover that my bike not only looks better (to me), but it runs better as well. I am happy.

-John

phil yates · Mar 27, 2014

Bonwit said:
phil yates said:

There is NO performance improvement that I can perceive with twin Amals, except top end that I mentioned. Bonwit may have psyched himself into this belief. I want to know how he keeps them in synch. My conclusion is that you can't, not for very long. Back in the very early 70's we used to use cigarette papers to indicate the first slide movement. It worked brilliantly for all of five minutes riding. Then out they would go again.

Click to expand...

You may think I psyched myself into believing the Amals provided higher performance, but you would be wrong. The improvement was obvious, thank you. Not dramatic, not day-and-night, but obvious. You do realize that these are not the same Amals that came with our bikes, right? The new Amal Premier is improved. Better casting, more substantial anodized slide, ethanol resistant float, reengineered idle circuit.

As for keeping them in balance, I can't say, as I haven't had them on a week. But it's unclear to me how they could mystically throw themselves out of balance. I'm guessing you had a cable problem. Initially, I had an issue where one of the short throttle cables pulled away from the junction box and jammed which caused a big imbalance. It seems that the short length and odd routing between the two carbs and the junction was the culprit. I solved it by tie-wrapping the junction box and securing the cables so they were better supported. So far so good.

I haven't had time to do much riding this week, but on my way out the door each morning I have taken a moment to follow the suggestions I've received here on proper starting technique - mastering the art of the tickle. I'd give it a try, just daring it not to start the first kick. It put a smile on my face every time. . . and no gas on my finger!

To each his own, but one of the pleasures I get from owning classic bikes is to strive to make them appear as close to original as I can. I understand that this is not everyone's goal. The Mikuni is a fine carburetor, but it just doesn't look right to me so I fixed it. I was prepared for the possibility that I may be causing headaches for myself, but now I'm thrilled to discover that my bike not only looks better (to me), but it runs better as well. I am happy.

-John

John/Bonwit
Yes I fully agree that if originality is important to you, keeping the amals is definitely the right way to go. We didn't get to mention originality in the discussion.

As far as performance goes, I guess the stop watch is the only true decider. Except for top speed which is definitely down with the Mikuni, but of no interest to me. That doesn't mean it matters not to every Norton rider. I remember fitting megaphone mufflers to my 61 Dominator and I thought I was flying. Later I realised that I was just making a lot more noise.

Yes I had a cable problem balancing the Amals. We all did. It was not a stuck cable, that would be dramatic. It was a stretching issue and perhaps modern cables are much improved in this regard.

I hope the Premiums work well for you and perhaps you will report further.

Just one point of interest, you mention ethanol resistant floats and I assume you are in the USA. In Australia ethanol is optional in your fuel. It runs at 10% but we still have ethanol free fuel at the pumps. Is this not so in the USA? I wouldn't touch it with a forty foot barge pole.

phil yates · Mar 27, 2014

Biscuit said:
Sorry it took a day to get back , interesting thread don't you think mr. yates? Read your post from this morning, thought it might have some meat in it but realized 2/3 of it were only childish attacks on me and really nothing about carbs, tuning them or much to do about bikes at all. The Norton I have now actually is the only one I've ever owned, bought new in '75. It still has original carbs that have been sleeved. It's pretty much stock but with electronic ignition. There was a time in the mid '80's when the bike was running shall we say less than great. In an attempt to make it less frustrating I actually bought and installed a single 34mm Mikuni, and along with the new ignition. It actually ran pretty well. I felt it had lost a some of it's character though, not the same snap, a bit lazy if you will. So I decided to make a concerted effort to learn how stock carbs work and how to tune/balance them (tuning and balancing carburetors is tuning skippy). Unlike yourself I did not get frustrated with this apparently, to you, daunting endeavor. I don't know whether you ordered that Norton from Mr. Lynch as it was built, or after speaking with you, and hearing you gripe about your personal past failed attempts of living with twin carbs, he recommended a single Mikuni fitment to be better for both of you in the long run.
I'm pretty sure a lot of members have faster bikes than mine and yours with a lot of different makes of carbs, single and twin Amal's, single and twin Mikuni's, etc, etc. A lot of the members choose their mixers accordingly, to work best for their engines needs. Once again if you will, go back and READ Bonwit's original post. He is very pleased with the new carb setup on HIS bike, and so after his comment, to basically advise him to just tear off those new carbs and replace with a single Mikuni because that's what works ok for you is just arrogant. And by the way the, the "real men" crack was just a "tongue in cheek" joke, didn't think it would hit a nerve like that. Did you not see the laughing smiley face? :lol: :roll: . That's it for me. Get your last smart remark in now. Cheers, with apologies to Bonwit.

Dear Basket Case
I didn't spend 2/3 of my post with childish attacks upon you.
The whole post was an attack upon you

)
But please don't think I don't love.
I just have a quirky way of showing it!!

Balancing and tuning carbs are two different things in my opinion.
Tuning is fiddling with mixtures, changing needle positions, maybe even jets.
When you get all that right you balance the suckers to run in synchronisation.
Which actually amounts to nothing but making slides operate in unison.
That's how I have always understood the terminology.

The daunting endeavour as you describe it, was not the actual balancing. I actually enjoyed that. But keeping them there was the frustrating part.

Yes I did see your smiley face but I didn't like the look of it. There was a sarcastic look about it and I took instant umbrage!!
Then your lesson on the English language was really special.

But don't stress, I am sure your posts will improve with time.

ashman · Mar 27, 2014

I have owned my Norton for 38 years and over 140,000 miles, for 34 years I have gone throught 2 sets of Amals and the last 4 years with Jims PWKs, the last set of Amals have done over 70,000 miles and were still working fine before I put Jims PWKs on, Amals are so easy to work on, I am no carbie expert but I have never had any problems with balancing them and tunning them, even with the orginal Amals with flogged out slides I was still able to keep them running with out to much troubles, yes worn slides do effect idling but that didn't worry me.

But one thing I always done and that was to replace jets and needles (carbie kit) every 2 or 3 years without failure, needles vibrate which cause the jets to wear oval.

The 750/850 Commandos in their time were classed as high performance motors, hence twin carbies and in that 38 years of riding I have never had a pilot jet blockage at all.

But my 850 needs twin carbies with all the goodies inside my motor.

Ashley

pete.v · Mar 27, 2014

concours said:
I've said it before, and it's still stands... if you MUST have the wholesome goodness of a Mik, why not a deep breathing 40, or 44mm VM for the best of both worlds. I've run TWIN 44's on a 530cc two stroke.... with great results. A SINGLE 44 would ROCK a Commando!

"That's insane." "You're crazy." "That'll never work." "There's not enough draw." "Blasphemy." "You're a retard." "Sell your bike." "Go to hell." on and on and on.

You are right, it IS the best of both worlds. I grant you, there is some jetting to deal with but that's the beauty of it. The scope is wide so eventually you can nail the setting and be DONE.

Again and again I say, the Premiers are the best Amals yet. But in comparison, they are archaic. Original look? Of course. Good performance? Sure. The best performance? Sorry, but no. VM's are ok, But although Flatsides are not that new, the sure wake up a Norton.

Real men take risks to find reward, pussies hide in the familiar.

MikeG · Mar 27, 2014

concours said:
Then there was the Bendix carb on my '74 shovelhead... at 16yo I likened it to a "beer can with a nail hole in the bottom" type of PRIMITIVE mixer... :roll:

Like a gas soaked sponge you say?

phil yates · Mar 27, 2014

pete.v said:
concours said:

I've said it before, and it's still stands... if you MUST have the wholesome goodness of a Mik, why not a deep breathing 40, or 44mm VM for the best of both worlds. I've run TWIN 44's on a 530cc two stroke.... with great results. A SINGLE 44 would ROCK a Commando!

Click to expand...

"That's insane." "You're crazy." "That'll never work." "There's not enough draw." "Blasphemy." "You're a retard." "Sell your bike." "Go to hell." on and on and on.

You are right, it IS the best of both worlds. I grant you, there is some jetting to deal with but that's the beauty of it. The scope is wide so eventually you can nail the setting and be DONE.

Again and again I say, the Premiers are the best Amals yet. But in comparison, they are archaic. Original look? Of course. Good performance? Sure. The best performance? Sorry, but no. VM's are ok, But although Flatsides are not that new, the sure wake up a Norton.

Real men take risks to find reward, pussies hide in the familiar.

Meow Meow
Real men don't have ethanol in their gasoline.
They drink it!!

So what is the answer?
Can you guys get ethanol free gasoline or not?

pete.v · Mar 27, 2014

I run a blend of 110 leaded and pump premium 50/50. It's not perfect but it's not bad. It will do ok on just premium but the blend is my preference. Many have found sources for avgas, not me.

worntorn · Mar 27, 2014

I don't think carbs, in any number will make you into a real man. When I was in school there was a very pretty girl who rode a Yamaha DT 1 , of course a single with a single Carb. After high school she purchased a twin Carb Bonneville. I saw her now and again, she was still very pretty and feminine. Last time I saw her was a couple of years ago, she rides a fuel injected bike now, but has owned and ridden bikes with as many as four carbuerators. She had not turned into a real man in any way, was just as feminine as ever.

Glen

phil yates · Mar 27, 2014

worntorn said:
I don't think carbs, in any number will make you into a real man. When I was in school there was a very pretty girl who rode a Yamaha DT 1 , of course a single with a single Carb. After high school she purchased a twin Carb Bonneville. I saw her now and again, she was still very pretty and feminine. Last time I saw her was a couple of years ago, she rides a fuel injected bike now, but has owned and ridden bikes with as many as four carbuerators. She had not turned into a real man in any way, was just as feminine as ever.

Glen

When I bought my first Mikuni carburettor, it came supplied with a dress in the box.
I put that on. I think I looked pretty cute.

gortnipper · Mar 27, 2014

phil yates said:
When I bought my first Mikuni carburettor, it came supplied with a dress in the box.
I put that on. I think I looked pretty cute.

but wearing that dress, you weren't going commando now, were you?

LOL

batrider · Mar 27, 2014

Bonwit said:
dave M said:

The other thing I have found is to screw on the metal locating rings for the boots with the flange facing forward, it seems somewhat counter- intuitive but gives a few mm extra clearance and every bit helps in this tight environment.

Click to expand...

Brilliant idea! Wish I'd thought of it at the time.

Thanks!

That's the way they should face anyway.

New Amals Replace Mikuni - What a difference!

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