Need help with identifying my Commando
- Thread starter muddygoggles
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1. Commando
2 rolling chassis 130174= series 1
3. engine = 20M3-130174-P
4. visually? uncertain "There you go Jayson. " a bit short from "this pix is your bike" with some confirmation.
2 pix MIGHT be his bike which would make it an "R" body style
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I took these pix off his Facebook post and linked them here. S/N in his posts on both platforms confirms this.
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Dave,
“The S made a radical styling statement. Its five-inch headlight wore a chrome “halo” attached to a special top triple tree.”
The 750 S has a 7” headlight same as the roadster. It is the 750 SS that has a 5” headlight. This is my ‘69 S next to my ‘72 roadster.
“The S made a radical styling statement. Its five-inch headlight wore a chrome “halo” attached to a special top triple tree.”
The 750 S has a 7” headlight same as the roadster. It is the 750 SS that has a 5” headlight. This is my ‘69 S next to my ‘72 roadster.
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illf8ed
You're obviously quoting some other Dave . In my post I am quoting the incorrect article. And I too was giving examples of a model that DOES have 5" lite and LA B followed up with the other. We all know the roadster and S have the 7" halo, except the articles author.I certainly know the S and series 1 roadster have 7" halo as I own one of each though both are currently in parts.
dynodave
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Sorry David,
I didn’t pick up you were quoting an article. Should have known better.
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Interesting on the halo. The only halo rings I ever saw were on the Commando 750 'S'. I can't recall ever seeing one on a Roadster. I'm not saying it never happened, just sharing my recollections from back in the day.
Back to the original post, that right hand side cover certainly looks correct for a Fastback. I thought it was exclusive to Fastbacks, but here I see a post showing that side cover with a Roadster tank... original?
Perhaps my razor-sharp memory has failed me? I can't recall how many times this has happened....
Back to the original post, that right hand side cover certainly looks correct for a Fastback. I thought it was exclusive to Fastbacks, but here I see a post showing that side cover with a Roadster tank... original?
Perhaps my razor-sharp memory has failed me? I can't recall how many times this has happened....
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The '70 Roadster also had the halo as it was basically a low-pipe 'S' (with central oil tank etc).
It's the oil tank, not a side cover.
The R type had the same oil tank as the Fastback and also the first model to have that style of fuel tank so it's an R tank, not 'Roadster' at that time.
Blewdy Yaink
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Yes, and the headlamp "ears" are aftermarket, too. The headlamp on a "R" is a bit difficult - I've seen some with a black painted shell and chrome ring (which I think was used on at least some early Commanodos) and some with a chrome shell. The 20M3 engine, with the "sport" tank, later to be used on the "S" and Roadster models, and the flatsided, uncovered oil tank are all hallmarks of the "R" model.
I'd like to know more about the production period for the "R". It's only my wild guess since it pre-dated my involvement with the company but I think that the "R" began production (actual serial production) late in 1968 and continued on using the 20M3 engine after it was superceded on the first "S" by the 20M3S engine as the '69 Fastback (or the "Original Commando which later began to be called the Fastback) model did. The "R" may have died with the closure of the AMC factory about late May, 1969. But as I said, this is all my guesswork.
I'd also like to know more about the design history of the "R" and "S". The oral history is that the Berliner brothers in the US were a major factor in urging a sport model to supplement the "Original Commando-w-l-c-t-b-c-t-Fastback" model but the "R" seems to have been much more widely sold in Canada, Aus/NZ, and to some extent the UK and Europe. Could it have been that the Berliners pushed for the "R" but were so much more highly impressed by the "S" that they dropped their interest in the "R". Or maybe they were more interested in and contributed to the development of the "S" more anyway.
It appears to me that the "R" preceded the "S" -- at least in the use of gaitered Roadholders, a black-painted chainguard, and the older-style oil tank, it appears to have been an earlier conception. OTOH, perhaps the "S" was designed first and the "R" was seen as a way to use up 20M3 engines and other left-over first-year Commando components. It's clear that the "S" was the forerunner of the Roadster since so many parts were direct carry-over, but I don't know where to put the apparently-bound for extinction "R" in the family tree of the overall Commando production.
I suppose that we'll never know as the actors have mostly passed on now. Any info that anyone has on these issues gratefully appreciated. Thanks, BH
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According to information supplied by Joe Seifert of Andover Norton, R types were built (in batches) from 129928 to 135885 which suggests production began in late 1968 and ended early in 1970 therefore, logically, R type production must have continued after the AMC factory closed.
I believe both the R and S types were introduced in March 1969. One source stating this was at the Brighton show (not all new model releases occurring at Earl's Court apparently).
I wonder if any of our members remember anything about the Brighton (motorcycle and cycle?) show (Edit: at what was The Metropole Exhibition Hall, apparently?) or did they go?
Edit: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/1969-Bright...mmando-S-2-Page-Vintage-Article-/352693674564
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Blewdy Yaink
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That's interesting. Having owned both a '69 "S" (serial #1317**) and a '70 Roadster (serial #1366**), Berliner East coast US-supplied, and having worked at two different Berliner dealers '69 - '71, I had never seen -- or ever heard of -- an "R" model until the days of the Internet brought the intricacies of the "niche" models to light; actually, I was familiar with the "SS" and "Hi-Rider" having seen them BITD in ads and in-the-flesh and written articles relating to the "LR" model of the Fastback (as it was called then). I still wonder why they were so rare in Berliner-World as it existed in 1969 and 1970.
Of course, you're right in that if the last "R" was 135885, production of the "R" must have continued into 1970. The timing of the first "R" with serial number 129928 would appear to be correct. The serial number range of the first Commando 126125 (early 1968) through the intro of the "S" with 131257 (known to be March, 1969) is approx. 5100 units, giving an approximate production schedule of about 425 per month or 100 per week. If there was a reasonable consistency of numbering, then a serial number of 129928 would have fallen approx. four months earlier, or with a general implication of first of November, 1968. The numbering of a 20M3 engine 1355885 as late as early 1970 (assuming that production of the 20M3 engine ceased when Plumstead Rd. closed and that no "R" motorcycles were built with 20M3S* engines) is a mystery. I know that they were pushing production of the "S" models which required an 20M3S engine but the idea of an 20M3 engine sitting in Andover stores for 7 -8 -9 months awaiting build into an obsolescent model is an inconsistency that's hard for me to imagine.
(* I have never heard of an "R" built with the 20M3S engine, the earlier engine seems to be a hallmark of the model, but strange things happened then.)
The generally accepted description of the AMC Plumstead schedule (which, of course, carried over into early Commando production) is that production was "ramped down" to minimal levels in autumn since the selling season in the UK and most of North America was dead October - April, unless there was a compelling reason to do otherwise, sales introductions for new-models would come in the spring. Then, from Christmas/New Year's shutdown until time to begin to build to "fill the pipeline" for the sales surge, there was re-tooling and production line change setup to begin models with new features or redesigned technical improvements. "Introduction" of new models for *Marketing purposes* was generally done in the spring; the idea of a sales introduction in March, 1969 of a variant that had begun production of 500 units in November, 1968 seems pretty much in accordance with usual schedule.
And as a side note, the "S" was advertised as being available with the Fireflake Red and Blue fuel tanks and side covers; in my experience in the US, they were supplied about 2/3 in red and 1/3 in blue (and the market felt that the proportion should have been about even). Sales brochures for the "R" seem to have been sparse at the time and almost unexistent today, but I think that I've seen note that the "R" models were stated to be available with either but any reference I've ever seen to an "R" as it exists today seems to only show them in Fireflake Red. Does anyone have authentication that any "R" models where supplied with the Fireflake Blue fuel tank?
(I was told in 1972 that the Fireflake paint schemes were very dependent upon the gel-coat glass-fibre moulding processes and that there was some delay in approving the blue Fireflake. If this is correct, that might be reflected in an apparent shortage of the blue for the "S" and it might have resulted in an even larger number of "R" models, production commencing earlier, being built with red fuel tanks. The blue in '69 was called Fireflake Pacific Blue in US sales materials and the red was Fireflake Ruby Red. For 1970 and the switch to the Roadster, the Fireflake red was dropped and replaced by the solid Signal Red and the continuing blue was then called Royal Blue. The Fireflake finishes depended on a very specific size and tint of metal flakes in the gel-coat finish -- but as far as I know, the 1970 Royal Blue was identical to the Fireflake Pacific Blue and the Royal Blue carried over with the Fireflake components and procedures (as did the soon-to-be-introduced Green, Purple, and Bronze gel-coat finishes which appear to be fully "Fireflake") but there is a possibility that the changes at the end of "S" production signalled a reason for dropping the Fireflake red and a change in the actual components and appearance of the blue finish.)
Thank you all (especially LAB) for your input. I'd like to know more about the low-volume and unusual "R" variant motorcycle model. Oh, how I wish that I could ask Triggy!
BH NC USA
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Working at AMC - Home
This is the Home page page of the Working at Associated Motor Cycles Ltd website
www.workingatamc.london
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Thanks very much! lol
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Thanks I'll check it out. I'm not sure yet but I am interested in its origin and history so that will likely lead me to building it back to original one day. For now I'll get it running and enjoy it before I tera it apart! lol
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From what I'm learning the R had the roadster style tank, metal oil tank/cover, no fastback style rear fender, no halo on the headlight and smaller light diameter and the 20M3 engine (not the 20M3S)
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Lol yeah the seat is going... Theyre bullets... It doesnt run yet but it will!
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YES and seat
FASTBACK oil tank
metal battery side cover
correct
correct
NO!
full 7"
Blewdy Yaink
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Hi, David. It a fine point that doesn't mean anything in practice but that's not quite true. Berliner had a contract to be the US distributor for Norton from the AMC days and Norton Villiers honored that all the way through until 1976. Berliner contracted with sub-distributors to handle local warehousing, wholesale deliveries, parts, and service with various companies around the US -- Jim Hayes in Johnson City TN was one (for the southeast) and "Domi-Racer" in Ohio for the upper mid-West was another. The California distributor in the 60s was ZDS motorcycles in San Francisco, they were contracted with Berliner for the sub-distribution of Norton motorcycles in the seven westernmost states in the continental US.
With Berliner's agreement, NV bought out ZDS (including the motorcycles, parts, and other materials that ZDS had in stock) and assumed the distribution of motorcycles in those seven states when Norton Villiers Corporation officially came into operation in January 1, 1969. Since production of the "S" models did not begin until March of 1969, all Commando "S" motorcycles that were imported into the western US were imported through NVC.
Within a few months, NVC had negotiated the rights from Berliner to distribute Nortons for all the US west of the Mississippi river.
But during the entire lifespan of NVC (including the official transformation to Norton Triumph Corporation in 1974), in theory NVC/NVT was legally a sub-distributor for Berliner. Having said all that, NVC handled importation, warehousing, shipping, parts supply, service and warranty entirely separately from Berliner and operated as a wholly separate entity, but there was the legal contract implication.
In mid-1976, Berliner filed a claim against the bank-ordered liquidation of Norton Villiers for the loss of its distribution rights since Nortons were no longer being manufactured and supplied. As part of the settlement of this claim, the bank liquidators agreed that NTC should transfer ownership of the former Triumph east coast distribution building in Timonium/Cockeysville MD to Berliner. This ended the contractual relationship between NV Ltd. and NVC/NTC and Berliner. (One thing that I don't know is whether NVC paid a royalty to Berliner on motorcycles sold in the US -- I know who to ask, though).
Was the Corte Madera dealership where you bought your "S" the dealership owned by Alex MacLean (and family)?
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