Need help with '75 Commando Mark III Electric Start

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It turns out the bike has an updated electronic system; that’s good! The Boyer box connections are as follows: The red wire splits, one goes to frame ground, and the other goes to the plus (+) terminal of the left side spark coil. The black wire goes to the plus (+) terminal of the right side spark coil. The white wire goes to terminal three (3) on the indicator light panel at the handlebar. The white on black and yellow on black wires both go to the old points/condenser area. Does this all seem correct?

Did the original factory setup have a positive ground, but the new electronic system has a negative (-) ground?

This is an electronic ignition unit only. If the red wire goes to the frame and the positive battery is a red wire (edit- Oops, forgot it is e-start. should have a heavy black cable from positive terminal of the battery to the engine cases), then it is still wired as factory, positive ground. If you have a good battery you can quickly test the ignition system by placing both plugs on the cylinder head (I suggest you use new plugs if the original plugs are questionable). Turn on the key and cycle the kill switch while watching for spark. Both plugs should spark. If not test the white wire for 12 volts with the key on. If you do not have 12 volts at the white wire, you will need to check the key switch.

The electric starters on these models are noted for being weak so if yours is not working, that is another story.
 
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adding a ground wire from where the battery cable connects to the frame to a point on the engine itself.

Welcome!

The earth wire at the head-steady is already present. This provides for a ground return FROM the engine TO the battery (the battery does not have to be connected to ground, it is the ground).


Sketchy ground connections on the Norton are often a source of odd electrical issues

Welcome!

The Commando utilises series wired grounds. There is nothing sketchy about them. Ground wires are connected where-ever a return (to ground, namely the battery) is required. The red wires are not looking for a place to ground, they are providing a return to ground. There has never been any "sketchy" issue with the wiring design on Commandos, just some components issues (like the bullet connectors for example).
 
The positive reg/rec wire can be connected to bat+ if required)

Well, it is required, or it will not work. If you connect it to any red wire, it will pretty obviously be connected to the batt +.
But whether or not it is connected DIRECTLY to the batt+ is another matter. There is no need whatsoever to do that.
 
Well, it is required, or it will not work. If you connect it to any red wire, it will pretty obviously be connected to the batt +.

What I meant was that the reg/rec positive wire can be connected directly to the battery positive terminal (without the possibility of the wire burning out from the starter current).


But whether or not it is connected DIRECTLY to the batt+ is another matter. There is no need whatsoever to do that.

I agree there's no actual need to do so.
 
To clarify, and this only applies to the 850 Mk3 electric start model is that whoever it was at NVT that designed the Mk3's harness (must have also designed the electric start T160's harness as both systems contain the same electrical 'mistake') where a direct harness 'ground' wire connection to the battery positive terminal has been included.

This must have caused sufficient problems for NVT to issue a dealer Service Bulletin instructing them to disconnect the harness positive battery wire and cut off the ring terminal from all T160s. Whether there was a similar service release issued for the Mk3 is, I think, unknown but the same applies.

Need help with '75 Commando Mark III Electric Start
 
The earth wire at the head-steady is already present. This provides for a ground return FROM the engine TO the battery (the battery does not have to be connected to ground, it is the ground).

The Commando utilises series wired grounds. There is nothing sketchy about them. Ground wires are connected where-ever a return (to ground, namely the battery) is required. The red wires are not looking for a place to ground, they are providing a return to ground. There has never been any "sketchy" issue with the wiring design on Commandos, just some components issues (like the bullet connectors for example).

If you want a good, reliable ground (Pos in this case) at the engine, you need a cable direct from a good ground. The best ground is the appropriate battery terminal OR the point on the frame where the cable from the battery connects. I have seen many instances where frame grounds were poor grounds at the engine. Sure, if all the bolts/washers/wire connectors are in excellent shape (no corrosion/rust, etc that adversely affects the current flow), there wouldn't be an issue. But a standard "insurance" item when we modified engines for high performance/competition was to add a new ground cable to the engine to ensure there was always an excellent ground path. It was amazing how many weak starter issues as well as ignition problems were resolved by that alone.

I totally agree that if a Mark 3 has a heavy ground cable to the engine/starter, no additional cabling is necessary. When I referred to sketchy grounds, I was talking about the fact that over the years, corrosion occurs in the bullet connectors, not that the system itself was sketchy as designed. Sure, new, out of the box, it's fine. 40 plus years old...it will need attention. All the bullet connectors should be disconnected, cleaned with something like De-Oxit, smeared with di-electric grease and remade. Sketchy grounds are one of the major causes of niggling electrical problems in vehicles of all sorts.
 
If you want a good, reliable ground (Pos in this case) at the engine, you need a cable direct from a good ground.

The battery + is the Ground. You do not seem to understand the basics.
The best ground is the appropriate battery terminal OR the point on the frame where the cable from the battery connects.

The only ground is the designated battery terminal. The frame is a device to connect the engine to the suspension. Now any conductive metal object can theoretically be used for ground returns, but as a point of fact, the Commando does not use that dynamic. It uses series wired ground circuits.


I have seen many instances where frame grounds were poor grounds at the engine.

There is no such thing as a frame ground, or engine ground. They can only ever be utilised for conductivity, and have no more ground status than the red wire attached to them. The BATTERY is the ground.

Sure, if all the bolts/washers/wire connectors are in excellent shape (no corrosion/rust, etc that adversely affects the current flow), there wouldn't be an issue.

Wrong. There would be an issue as the original designers knew, which is why they used series wired grounds, that lead directly to the battery. On the MK 3, the red wires terminate at the top engine steady, are conducted through the engine, and then via the starter earth lead. The engine has no more status as a ground then the red wire, or earth lead, it is merely a conductor. The BATTERY is the ground.

But a standard "insurance" item when we modified engines for high performance/competition was to add a new ground cable to the engine to ensure there was always an excellent ground path. It was amazing how many weak starter issues as well as ignition problems were resolved by that alone.

This is meaningless. Essentially, all this says is that sometimes motorcycles require re-wiring.

I totally agree that if a Mark 3 has a heavy ground cable to the engine/starter, no additional cabling is necessary.

All MK 3 left the factory that way, and as it would be ridiculous to assume changes by default, any suggestions for "additional wiring" is nonsense.

When I referred to sketchy grounds, I was talking about the fact that over the years, corrosion occurs in the bullet connectors, not that the system itself was sketchy as designed.

No, you were not. You mentioned the connectors earlier and separately.

Sure, new, out of the box, it's fine. 40 plus years old...it will need attention. All the bullet connectors should be disconnected, cleaned with something like De-Oxit, smeared with di-electric grease and remade.

This had nothing at all to do with your "sketchy earth" tale. And for what it is worth, while the MK 3 is not completely free from bullet connectors, it does, for the most part, use later style multi connectors.

Sketchy grounds are one of the major causes of niggling electrical problems in vehicles of all sorts.

The only sketchy part is your sketchy earth theory. Give it up, you clearly do not understand Commando wiring at all.
 
The frame is a device to connect the engine to the suspension. Now any conductive metal object can theoretically be used for ground returns, but as a point of fact, the Commando does not use that dynamic. It uses series wired ground circuits.


Not entirely. The Commando rear direction indicators do not have a 'wire' ground/return.

The Lucas 679 tail lamp assembly fitted to '68-'72 Commandos I believe has no ground/return wire.

https://www.classicbritishspares.co...le-l679-53973-beehive-lamp-triumph-bsa-norton
 
I think Arlen is still trying to eat his lunch while re-reading his notes...
 
Arlen - in your quest to sort out the electrics, and to avoid some confusing posts, perhaps caused by different use of terms or genuine disagreement, I suggest you closely study the service manual wiring diagram. It will clearly...well reasonably clearly - show you what all the wires do in the OEM system with their appropriate color codes. Obviously if there have been any changes made to the stock wiring the diagram is less useful.

If, as you say, everything is working AND the harness is in good condition, you could just open/clean/grease/remake the connections and it might be fine for as long as you will own the bike! But certainly a new harness would be a good thing. A friend just purchased a new one from CNW which, as usual, is gorgeous stuff - all teflon aircraft-quality wiring (No critics, I'm not saying the wire itself is Teflon, just the insulating material!). The CNW harness will probably be functioning perfectly several lifetimes from now! Of course, there are less expensive new harness options. Keep in mind that the Norton wiring system is standard copper wire which, when 40 years old, can develop corrosion close to connections. Often the corrosion runs back along the wire too far to be able to cut back to good wire and remake a connection. Tinned wire (like the CNW harness) eliminates this issue. As I said earlier, when NEW the wire is fine; when old...well, not so much. I've had bullet connectors fall off the wires on old harnesses when they were just slightly moved.
 
Not entirely. The Commando rear direction indicators do not have a 'wire' ground/return.

The Lucas 679 tail lamp assembly fitted to '68-'72 Commandos I believe has no ground/return wire.

https://www.classicbritishspares.co...le-l679-53973-beehive-lamp-triumph-bsa-norton

68-72 tail light ground is 11" red wire, bullet one end for harness, 1/4" round eyelet for turn/tail lite bracket assy.
73-75 tail light/turn signal ground is from harness red wire/ bullet connector inside light assy through sheet metal license plate/turn signal chassis to turn signals.

first wiring question for Arlen should have been...early (first 2000 thru 327000 approx) or later MKIII?
 
73-75 tail light/turn signal ground is from harness red wire/ bullet connector inside light assy through sheet metal license plate/turn signal chassis to turn signals.

Not any that I have including those out of new boxes!
None have continuity between the bulb holder and the light assembly as the bulb holders are completely encased in rubber.

Need help with '75 Commando Mark III Electric Start



Need help with '75 Commando Mark III Electric Start



Need help with '75 Commando Mark III Electric Start
 
Mechanical things are no problem for me, but when it comes to electrons I'm pretty weak. Is there anyone out there that would be able and willing to step me through the process of sorting out the electrics on this bike? I just recently finished getting one of the deceased's Moto Guzzis running with help from a great guy only known to me as "guzzisteve" on the wildguzzi.com website. I'm hoping to get just as lucky with someone (or several) on this website.

watch what you ask for lol..

bike running?
 
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