Moving the Norton 961 Forward

TonyA · Aug 1, 2015

As you can see from the dyno graph the power continues to build right to the point where the ECU cuts it off. Its not huge power , less than 70 but its the torque that really gets this thing moving . I don't know why I didn't get a torque curve , but at any rate this is with 091 map and Motad's short and loud with decat X pipe. ( They aren't that loud by the way , but they sound good. ) Again its the torque I feel has really fattened up and the peak HP just a little gain . Sorry for the rotation , I will have to edit it and re-load . MCC said that the 091 map worked best and that they had 4 maps to choose from. 091 must be the latest Norton map. More to come later .

richard-7 · Aug 2, 2015

Thank you for sharing!!!!

I was told by a guy at the INOA Rally that someone he knows who has a 961 got just over 100HP on a dyno. I wonder if this guy has Matt Capri's Big Bore kit. Or something else we don't know about. Or totally far fetched. At least now I can tell people something a little more accurate when they ask me. I usually say around 90HP.

BritTwit · Aug 2, 2015

Tony,

Interesting info.
The official Norton site - HP - 80PS @ 6500 RPM
Your dyno indicates 67HP or so at 8000 RPM.
Very confusing, no?

Did MCC personnel offer any explanation for peculiar hp curve?

worntorn · Aug 2, 2015

I've always assumed Norton's 80 horsepower figure was crankshaft HP, which is what every other manufacturer quotes.
RWHP is said to be about 15 % less which puts the Norton number not too far off Tony's result. On top of that Dynos can be programmed to give about any result you would like, so it's really a/comparitive tool for tuning more than anything.

You can calculate and produce the torque curve from the HP graph pretty easily. The torque at any given point along the HP curve is equal to the Horsepower x 5252 all divided by the RPM. So Torque and HP are always equal numbers at 5252 rpm.

Glen

BritTwit · Aug 2, 2015

Two things I found curious:
In spite of having free flowing exhaust, de-catted header, and adjusted/re-mapped efi, the HP number is significantly below the stock – advertised crank HP. I realize that the dyno run is rwhp, but given the modifications, I would expect better numbers.

Also, the dyno chart describes a power curve quite different from Norton’s claimed power peak at 6500 RPM. Perhaps we should take spec data from Norton with a few gains of salt.
I guess the real problem is that there was no “control” run on the dyno with a box stock 961 for comparison.

If I can get my dealer to remap my 961 with the #90 map, I’ll try to get a dyno run for comparison.

TonyA · Aug 2, 2015

Hey , You cant please everybody all the time. I tried to get a baseline run but my cat X-pipe was cracked so MCC decided no to that . Besides, I am happy with my power curve . It just pulls strongly all the way up , there is a nice step up after 5k . I am telling you that the stock setup on my bike was not bad at all , those stock Motads make the most of what the bike has. These new short and loud motads are half the weight it seems . It would be great if others would go get a dyno run , then we can talk .

BritTwit · Aug 2, 2015

I do wish my dealer was as cooperative as MCC seems to be.
I'm trying to get map #90 installed for my 961 that has a full SBN exhaust.
My dealer is dragging his feet getting the map files from Norton.
It's just been so damn hard to get info from or motivate them since the dealership changed hands.
The original owner embrased performance enhancements, and aftermarket products, and was a great guy.

I recently packed up my stock Motad silencers for storage, and did notice that they are very nicely constructed.
Very nice welds for an OEM exhaust. I'm not familiar with the company, but looks like they make a quality product.

TonyA · Aug 2, 2015

On My 1996 Triumph Trident , The stock mufflers from Triumph were made by Motad , stamped right on the bottom of the cans , the pipes too. They have been around for 50 years.

TonyA · Aug 2, 2015

BritTwit , Are you still running the stock map with that SBN exhaust ? Why not send your ECU in and have it done somewhere else ? That's what Ive heard you can do . I think G81Can Cycle did that with his black 961 . You should send in the ECU and have it done. I can speak to MCC if you like.

BPHORSEGUY · Aug 2, 2015

Keep in mind that MCC or anyone else will need a donor bike if anyone sends an ECU for remap.

The irony here is that G81 sent his ECU to GOLD COAST which is BritTwit's dealer.

In this case the donor bike was his second 961!

BritTwit · Aug 2, 2015

TonyA said:
BritTwit , Are you still running the stock map with that SBN exhaust ? Why not send your ECU in and have it done somewhere else ? That's what Ive heard you can do . I think G81Can Cycle did that with his black 961 . You should send in the ECU and have it done. I can speak to MCC if you like.

My 961 was remapped with map #77 in November last year. It did resolve some of the issues, but I still have starting, and cold running issues. Once warmed up, it runs great so it’s not a serious issue, just something that I want to get resolved.
I’m not sure which map G81 had burned on his ECU, but Gold Coast claims that they don’t have the #90 map. Neither Norton nor Epps have responded to any of their emails concerning the issue.

TonyA · Aug 3, 2015

richard-7 said:
Thank you for sharing!!!!

I was told by a guy at the INOA Rally that someone he knows who has a 961 got just over 100HP on a dyno. I wonder if this guy has Matt Capri's Big Bore kit. Or something else we don't know about. Or totally far fetched. At least now I can tell people something a little more accurate when they ask me. I usually say around 90HP.

Hello Richard , I suppose its possible that someone out there has a 100 hp Norton 961. I am sure the engine is capable of more than what it makes stock . Its just that any development will be very slow with so few bikes. I can hardly use the power it has now , with police and radar traps etc. If Norton could ever get going , A factory upgrade kit would be nice with new ECU taking it to say 8500 rpm before cut off . This motor is in a very conservative state of tune .

BritTwit · Aug 3, 2015

Back in 2013 before the first bikes got to the US, I heard the same 100 HP tale.
I was told that it was Matt's expectation, with free flowing exhaust, bigger intake values, and better induction.
I assumed the better induction referred to the air box.
Supposedly, the ports are pretty good in the stock head.

The 8500 rpm readline, remember these are pushrod machines.
No telling if the valve train was designed for operation above 8000.

Matt and Carlos are working on performance parts for these bikes so it shouldn't be too long before they appear for sale.
A small market will mean high prices though.

G81 Can Cycle · Aug 3, 2015

Gold Coast did do my remaps, and they were #77. They remapped my new 961 (and put the short Motads I purchased from Krazy Horse) and I sent my ECU from the Red 961 to be mapped in the "donor" new bike. But I will say it was not a pleasant process. I doubt if I will deal with Gold Coast in the future

MCC seems to be backing Tony pretty well (Tony: got any contact names there?) Since there are no dealers near me, it makes no difference if I deal with New York or Chicago.

The other thing I have considered is making some in roads with South Bay. When I bought my DT's from them, the service was good. And I believe Capri is more inclined to performance enhancements. South Bay certainly showed some incentive by going to Cone Manufacturing and getting new pipes made.

As of now, when I need parts, I am calling Krazy Horse. Their service has been great.

BritTwit · Aug 3, 2015

G81 Can Cycle said:
Gold Coast did do my remaps, and they were #77. They remapped my new 961 (and put the short Motads I purchased from Krazy Horse) and I sent my ECU from the Red 961 to be mapped in the "donor" new bike. But I will say it was not a pleasant process.

South Bay certainly showed some incentive by going to Cone Manufacturing and getting new pipes made.

Since the change in owners, I've noticed a real difference in Gold Coast as well. I hope it's not a new attitude.

What new pipes are you referring to. Were them custom built for your 961?

TonyA · Aug 3, 2015

G81 Can Cycle said:
Gold Coast did do my remaps, and they were #77. They remapped my new 961 (and put the short Motads I purchased from Krazy Horse) and I sent my ECU from the Red 961 to be mapped in the "donor" new bike. But I will say it was not a pleasant process. I doubt if I will deal with Gold Coast in the future

MCC seems to be backing Tony pretty well (Tony: got any contact names there?) Since there are no dealers near me, it makes no difference if I deal with New York or Chicago.

The other thing I have considered is making some in roads with South Bay. When I bought my DT's from them, the service was good. And I believe Capri is more inclined to performance enhancements. South Bay certainly showed some incentive by going to Cone Manufacturing and getting new pipes made.

As of now, when I need parts, I am calling Krazy Horse. Their service has been great.

MCC Chicago 630-782-2010 Ask for Bob in the Service Dept.

I am inclined to think that Matt Capri may be the best solution for high performance , only because of his already well known interests at Bonneville. I second the Krazy Horse as a great parts source. Just be ready to call England in the morning . The short and loud Motads with de-cat X-pipe are really nice. Has anyone contacted K&N to see if they will make us an air filter ?. I think they will if we send a sample ! Thanks again G81 !

G81 Can Cycle · Aug 3, 2015

BritTwit said:
G81 Can Cycle said:

Gold Coast did do my remaps, and they were #77. They remapped my new 961 (and put the short Motads I purchased from Krazy Horse) and I sent my ECU from the Red 961 to be mapped in the "donor" new bike. But I will say it was not a pleasant process.

South Bay certainly showed some incentive by going to Cone Manufacturing and getting new pipes made.

Click to expand...

Since the change in owners, I've noticed a real difference in Gold Coast as well. I hope it's not a new attitude.

What new pipes are you referring to. Were them custom built for your 961?

Sorry for the confusion. When I said the new pipes made by South Bay, I was talking about their current offerings (The DT and they have another set but I do not know the model I think DBono made me aware of these after I bought the Red 961 last year) They have offered these for over a year. I was just commenting on the fact that they seem to be the only dealer who has dabbled in the after market or performance end of 961 improvement

I mentioned Cone Manufacturing because that is where South Bay has them fabricated. Cone does nice work. Matt at CNW has stainless pipes made for his current builds made by Cone. And if Matt uses a vendor, then they most likely do good work.

G81 Can Cycle · Aug 3, 2015

TonyA said:
G81 Can Cycle said:

Gold Coast did do my remaps, and they were #77. They remapped my new 961 (and put the short Motads I purchased from Krazy Horse) and I sent my ECU from the Red 961 to be mapped in the "donor" new bike. But I will say it was not a pleasant process. I doubt if I will deal with Gold Coast in the future

MCC seems to be backing Tony pretty well (Tony: got any contact names there?) Since there are no dealers near me, it makes no difference if I deal with New York or Chicago.

The other thing I have considered is making some in roads with South Bay. When I bought my DT's from them, the service was good. And I believe Capri is more inclined to performance enhancements. South Bay certainly showed some incentive by going to Cone Manufacturing and getting new pipes made.

As of now, when I need parts, I am calling Krazy Horse. Their service has been great.

Click to expand...

MCC Chicago 630-782-2010 Ask for Bob in the Service Dept.

I am inclined to think that Matt Capri may be the best solution for high performance , only because of his already well known interests at Bonneville. I second the Krazy Horse as a great parts source. Just be ready to call England in the morning . The short and loud Motads with de-cat X-pipe are really nice. Has anyone contacted K&N to see if they will make us an air filter ?. I think they will if we send a sample ! Thanks again G81 !

Tony

You might know this already, I just found out a short while ago. The stock air filter is very similar to a K&N. It is a washable fabric filter, that can be cleaned and re-oiled, just like a K&N.. I just purchased a K&N filter cleaning kit and serviced my stock (oil fouled) filter. Worked great

TonyA · Aug 3, 2015

Hello , I did read about cleaning and oiling the filter in the owners manual . I remember someone on this forum advising against it. It makes sense to me and you have confirmed that it works well. Thanks G81.

Fast Eddie · Aug 4, 2015

Gents,

What do the new Norton's run like on the road next to the old ones?

This thread has got me thinking that a well tuned old one is not gonna be that far behind a new one on power, may even be on a par with a bad one / stock silenced one etc.

Add in the weight difference and I'm thinking they could be quite close ... ?

Moving the Norton 961 Forward

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