Moto G.P. Progress?

Just for a laugh, here is the comparison for quickest lap at the last G.P. [Mugello,Italy]...
...of 4-stroke G.P.3 250 vs 2-stroke G.P.250;
1:57.980 VS 1:52.804...

The Moto3 class is a replacement for the 125 two stroke class, just as Moto2 is the replacement for the old 250 2 stroke class, so a comparison between a 250cc four stroke single and a 250 2 stroke twin is hardly fair!

& a comparison between a 600cc 4cyl 4-stroke vs 250cc 2cyl 2-stroke IS fair?
Another laugh, this time Phillip Is [Aus G.P.], Moto 2 vs G.P. 250 best lap;
Moto 2, 1:34.039
vs
G.P. 250, 1:32.075.

J.A.W. said:

& a comparison between a 600cc 4cyl 4-stroke vs 250cc 2cyl 2-stroke IS fair?
Another laugh, this time Phillip Is [Aus G.P.], Moto 2 vs G.P. 250 best lap;
Moto 2, 1:34.039
vs
G.P. 250, 1:32.075.

Click to expand...

Hardly a fair comparison, as the GP250s after many years of development, were at the top of their game.
Most of the last 250s were V-twin two strokes and when some tuner/manufacturer over bored one to 400cc and entered it in, at the time, the 500 class, it was capable of finishing in the top 10 of the 500 GP races!
Some of the works 500 riders were a bit peeved off by being beaten by a bike with a smaller engine.

& how many years development have Honda put into 600/4s? ~25? & 4 valve 4T 250s ? 40?.
I had a Yoshimura XL 250 back in the day, that would revvvv out [mind you, it HAD to, to compete with 2Ts].
Fact is, going slower - is not G.P. racing progress, especially when it costs so much more.

Whilst I do not disagree with what you say, comparing the old v twin GP250s with modern day Moto Gp bikes is like comparing chalk from cheese.
The 250s were capable of 190-195mph down the straights, and with their lighter weight, accelerate faster out of the corners.
As Jap companies like Honda had to go and make 125,250 & 350 in 4,5 and 6 cylinders engines some revving to a Dizzy high 22,000 RPM :!:
for their GP bikes to complete against the rising two strokes in the 1960s, which eventually came to dominate the sport.
Even Yamaha made 125 and 250 V 4 water-cooled two stroke GP bikes in the 1960s mainly ridden by Bill Ivy and Phil Read.
The cost of making these exotic race machines proved too much for the Japanese factories, as they all quit GP racing around about the same time, leaving the door wide open for an Italian bike to win the world championship virtually unopposed for about the next ten years.
I hope I am proven wrong, but I can see the same thing happening again in MotoGP racing as the cost proves too much.

The FIM should have left the GP classes alone, but the powers that be assumed quite wrongly that a 4 cylinder four stroke with 16 or more valves to maintain, revving to 16,000 rpm, would be cheaper than a two stroke 250 twin cylinders, with two pistons with only one ring on each piston. ( Which was what this class was restricted to ).
How very naïve of them!
As for making the class slower, yes, that was the aim, as it happens in Formula One car racing nearly every year when they keep changing the rules to achieve this, to slow them down on lap speeds, as some of the circuits are deemed unsuitable ( by the ‘ealth & safely people :!: ) for this type of racing class.


http://images.search.conduit.com/ImageP ... rt=0&pos=1

http://www.mbike.com/honda/rc166-250/1966

Sad that Honda has learned to get more power out of a single 250 2T cylinder than their famous 6cyl 250 4T, & at a fraction of the cost/complication.
Yet for [irrational] grounds of ideology - insist on the banning of 2Ts in G.P. racing, even though 2Ts are unarguably superior on cost/performance/mass/excitement - per cc unit.

From current issue A.M.C.N. P. 57,Michael Scott article "10 moments that changed racing";
' 1, The 4T takeover',
"Why the change? Honda`s influence was clear, but the actual suggestion came from Yamaha for GP bikes to conform to what was being sold. 2Ts had already been systematically killed off on the street [more Honda influence].
Racing was robbed of the best engine for the job; streetbikes too."

J.A.W. said:

Sad that Honda has learned to get more power out of a single 250 2T cylinder than their famous 6cyl 250 4T, & at a fraction of the cost/complication.
Yet for [irrational] grounds of ideology - insist on the banning of 2Ts in G.P. racing, even though 2Ts are unarguably superior on cost/performance/mass/excitement - per cc unit.

Click to expand...

Part of this may be true, but I doubt if a single cylinder 250 will lap a tarmac race circuit at anywhere near the same speed as a 250 six cylinder job, as a 250/6 would not lap a dirt track anywhere near as fast as a 250 single.
Each engine was build to serve a different purpose, and are as different as chalk and cheese as are the race circuits.

How many gears did the Honda 250/6 have? Since`69, G.P. bikes have been limited to 6 speeds, but development means that even a 55hp 125 single could make do with 6.
Honda built a V-twin 500 racer that was good for ~160 hp, so 1/2 that would make a 80hp 250 single that would cream both Moto 3 & that 250/6 - without much bother.
In fact you can buy [for~ $10K] a complete [WHOLE BIKE] showroom stock KTM 250 2T MX racer that puts out [@ 8,000rpm] as much hp as the [~$30K-mill only] Moto 3s do at 13,000+rpm.
Next step for Rotax is to utilize some of their BRP E-TEC DFI 2T [EURO-emissions] compliant mills in a bike...

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn`t [wasn`t]racing supposed to be about getting from start to finish line before your competition - running to the same rules, which used to mean run whatever you think will win, within a capacity class, with, logically - more powerful bikes, going faster - given chassis dynamics.
I cant see a 60+hp 250/6 4T beating a 80+hp 250 single 2T [torque x revs at 18,000rpm vs 11,500rpm &the mass/frontal area problem] - around a road-race circuit.

You are quire right about the flag to flag bit.
But the FIM then changed the rules to restrict the 250s to 2 cylinders and six speeds.

Sorry to tell you but the Honda 250/6 did just that against the 1960s two strokes, even the latter 250cc Ossa that they developed a revolutionary bike with a monocoque chassis for Santiago Herrero. He was beaten by Hailwood on the British short circuits.
Only the Yamaha 250 v4 ridden by Phil Read ever beat, I believe, the 250/6 in the GP class. This was way back in the 1960s and would not beat the twin cylinder
two strokes that the FIM recently made redundant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_Herrero

Yes, in the `60s MZ had got 2Ts up to 200+hp/ltr- but over a very narrow power-band which made then difficult to ride well, however by the time 2Ts were banned they were putting out a reliable, tractable 440hp/ltr..

We have come to the conclusion , with all this biofuel tripe , That if in Formular One car raceing
they make Water compulsary for fuel , they'll have it figured out in a jiffy , and we'll all save a bundle .

Still making 'progress' with your 2T racing mills then, eh, Matt?

From Kevin Cameron's June `11 Cycle World article Race Watch [Daytona]...
"Service life for 600 top ends is 500km [310miles], & 1000km for the bottom end.
Nobody changes oil in these 4-strokes - they just add. The oil lasts as long as the engine."

Jul/Aug `12 Classic Racer has an interview with recently retired [after 22 years in G.P.s - riding all classes] Loris Capirossi, who, when asked about his favourite race bike said:
"That 500 kind of bike, for me is the best.
I love 2-stroke bikes, & I`m sorry they dont have any more, that kind of bike."

J.A.W. said:

From Kevin Cameron's June `11 Cycle World article Race Watch [Daytona]...
"Service life for 600 top ends is 500km [310miles], & 1000km for the bottom end.
Nobody changes oil in these 4-strokes - they just add. The oil lasts as long as the engine."

Click to expand...

Not sure which 600 this is referring to, but the SuperStock 600's have to be raced in basically showroom condition (?), and its been said that they can do a whole seasons racing with just routine servicing and oil changes. For out of the showroom, for something that revs to 14,000 rpm, that ain't bad....

For my money, as a spectator, the Moto3 with their ~50 bhp single cylinders are the best value (to watch) racing of all time. Going into corners 5 abreast like there is no tomorrow is how racing oughta be, not won in the $$/r&d/workshop before the race...

There I was, haring down the road, my trusty Onda beside me....

Anyone who says there is no progress in racing isn't watching the game ?
Look how far over that thing is.
And when you see the speeds and laptimes...

Funny you chose that pic, K.C. is calling it quits due to his frustration at the lack of progress, & cites missing out on racing 2T 500s as one of his major regrets...as for Moto 3, put those guys on tricycles & you`d get a torrid race, but really, the bikes shouldn`t be boring in the pinacle of the sport.