MKIIA 850 carb needle: bean can vs peashooter

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Interesting as ever L.A.B., thanks for stopping by – on fitting the new slides there didn't seem to be any friction on their way down into the old carb bodies, and from today's fiddlings I'm thinking that, say, a slight, downward increase in the thickness of metal in the slide where the throttle cable's nipple seats would have the effect of raising the slide a tad? Something along those lines anyway. Rain stopping play has been the story of my summer this year, or I'd have persevered for another hour or two, and got things more settled down. I'm pleased to hear you say the anodised slides last longer – yes, my thinking was to get a tighter fit for the slides, just in view of their newness, and a longer life for them and the carb bodies. There's definite progress here, I just wish I had my own private test track and, well, something as basic as a car port would be nice, not to be too greedy ... :wink:
 
Is it possible to shave the Stay Up float material? I've now removed both needle valve seats to check and clean underneath – there was a bit of fuel sediment under both – but I'm still stuck for a decent fuel level, especially in the right carb. Given how a tiny bend on the needle tangs translates to a much larger change in float height, I'm still chasing a tiny range between a low fuel level or the float hitting the bottom of the carb body, causing the carb to flood, this with both needle seats pressed all the way down. I feel I'm clutching at straws here, but if I can shave a bit of Stay Up float material off the top of the float, it seems to me that the reduced weight of the float would tend to raise the fuel level, even if by a tiny amount it would be progress. Most importantly it would allow the float to sit higher in the float bowl, and give more scope for raising the fuel level. Whatever's going on here, it just isn't right.

BTW, those of you who've been following this thread and are still here might recall that I had the same problem in the right carb before I replaced the old plastic floats. I noticed the other day that the (unbendable) tangs on one of these – I think from the right carb – are angled downwards quite considerably: the tangs on the other are in line with the top of the float, which I take to be correct. So the tangs with the downward tendency would shut the needle valve early, and produce a lower fuel level. If all else fails, I'm thinking I'll abandon the Stay Up floats and replace the faulty plastic one with another from a couple of old Concentrics I have lying around ... :cry:

In other, off-topic news, the local council has just introduced 'no parking' all the way down my side of my dead-end street, around the end and part-way up the other side, and introduced residents-only parking on what's left. Thereby reducing the parking capacity here by more than half. And no free-parking motorcycle bay. Just what I needed ...
 
NortonMKIIA850 said:
Is it possible to shave the Stay Up float material?

Nothing ventured.....
I don't know if the StayUps are hollow or solid.
I'm just mystified you have this problem with only one carb and for no apparent reason.


NortonMKIIA850 said:
In other, off-topic news, the local council has just introduced 'no parking' all the way down my side of my dead-end street, around the end and part-way up the other side, and introduced residents-only parking on what's left. Thereby reducing the parking capacity here by more than half. And no free-parking motorcycle bay. Just what I needed ...

Time to find somewhere else to live with more space? :wink:
 
L.A.B. said:
NortonMKIIA850 said:
Is it possible to shave the Stay Up float material?

Nothing ventured.....
I don't know if the StayUps are hollow or solid.
I'm just mystified you have this problem with only one carb and for no apparent reason.


NortonMKIIA850 said:
In other, off-topic news, the local council has just introduced 'no parking' all the way down my side of my dead-end street, around the end and part-way up the other side, and introduced residents-only parking on what's left. Thereby reducing the parking capacity here by more than half. And no free-parking motorcycle bay. Just what I needed ...

Time to find somewhere else to live with more space? :wink:

I'm mystified too – although the fuel level in the left carb is only barely touching the lower end of the acceptable range, at 0.240" below the top of the float bowl, if that. I think I mentioned that I bought these carbs brand new as a pair from an extremely reputable supplier, many years ago now. I've really no idea what to make of it all.

About moving, yes that's crossed my mind, but it'd be such a wrench – I've lived here twenty years, know my neighbours, and have no desire to leave my lovely home. I'm not sure I could afford what I'd need anyway! All because some a*se at the council decided we were having it too easy for parking. :?
 
One idea is to move to Toronto. All motorcycles can park anywhere legal free ( but you must go to City Hall for your free permit which must be attached to the bike ) , This is to encourage alternative forms of transportation other than cars-trucks. Our parking head dude bragged that Toronto makes more money off of tickets and permits than any other city in THE WORLD ! I drive an e-bike anywhere with the bicycle network here. No money involved. :wink:
 
Oh Toronto, don't give me ideas – my first love was last seen heading there circa 1983! I wish the council here might take the same approach ...
 
NortonMKIIA850 said:
Is it possible to shave the Stay Up float material? I've now removed both needle valve seats to check and clean underneath – there was a bit of fuel sediment under both – but I'm still stuck for a decent fuel level, especially in the right carb. Given how a tiny bend on the needle tangs translates to a much larger change in float height, I'm still chasing a tiny range between a low fuel level or the float hitting the bottom of the carb body, causing the carb to flood, this with both needle seats pressed all the way down. I feel I'm clutching at straws here, but if I can shave a bit of Stay Up float material off the top of the float, it seems to me that the reduced weight of the float would tend to raise the fuel level, even if by a tiny amount it would be progress. Most importantly it would allow the float to sit higher in the float bowl, and give more scope for raising the fuel level. Whatever's going on here, it just isn't right.

BTW, those of you who've been following this thread and are still here might recall that I had the same problem in the right carb before I replaced the old plastic floats. I noticed the other day that the (unbendable) tangs on one of these – I think from the right carb – are angled downwards quite considerably: the tangs on the other are in line with the top of the float, which I take to be correct. So the tangs with the downward tendency would shut the needle valve early, and produce a lower fuel level. If all else fails, I'm thinking I'll abandon the Stay Up floats and replace the faulty plastic one with another from a couple of old Concentrics I have lying around ... :cry:


I had similar issues a couple of weeks ago on my Premiers. When the fuel was set at the correct level, the top of the float was approx 8mm above the top of th bowl ( see the attached picture). I ended up setting them at about 2mm above, and they don't seem to flood, but I didn't get a chance to ride it yet.

The next day I called Burlen, and the guy I spoke to said "ah yes some of the stay ups do that". And advised me to set them level with the edge and I won't go wrong. That suggestion would make the levels even lower though.I asked If I could trim the tops of the floats but he advised against it as there is a fuel proof outer hard shell filled with close cell material which could become saturated and sink.

It would be very interesting to float one of the old style And a stay up in a bowl of petrol and compare how high they sit above the fuel. I don't have an old style to compare unfortunately, but I suspect the stay ups are more buoyant.


Cheers,

cliffa
MKIIA 850 carb needle: bean can vs peashooter
 
cliffa, your photo illustrates precisely the problem I'm having, thank you! And well done for phoning Burlen. So some of them do that eh? Remember the old chestnut about oil leaks, 'Oh they all do that sir'? That didn't wash then, and I don't see why this should wash now ... Seems to me a return for a refund might be due. At the very least it might get Burlen to sort this problem out, so none of them do that ... I can set my Stay Ups level with the top of the float bowls, as advised, but it does indeed leave me with woefully low fuel levels. And from what the guy at Burlen said to you, then, there's no point in trying to shave the floats. I've wondered about Stay Up buoyancy vs plastic too – it might take a day or three, but I can do that comparison and report back, hopefully with photos. Unless someone feels inclined to beat me to it. Anyway I'll do it while I take the Stay Ups out and replace them with the old plastic floats I have knocking around ... Cheers!
 
Well I've taken the Stay-Up floats out of my carbs and re-installed old-style plastic floats. Now I have decent fuel levels in both carbs, since I was able to replace a faulty plastic float with one that I'm pretty sure is a 44-year-old original, discoloured but otherwise fine as far as I can tell. I've also emailed Burlen about the problem, and about returning the Stay-Up floats to them. But it'd all taken me so long to get to this point, plus there was other stress going on, that I just wanted the job done, so I haven't compared the floats for buoyancy – yet. I hope to try doing that before I send the Stay Ups back, as I have spare floats and bowls lying around.

The bike now seems to be cracklingly good, thanks to this long and tortuous thread, and to all who have contributed! It's been quite exasperating at times, but, short of ethanol-proof floats, I think I'm pretty much there.

Another reason I didn't get around to the buoyancy comparison is because I decided to use Bushman's 'shop' method of balancing the carbs on the same day. I certainly think it works. Although, when Bushman advises using 3/16" drill bits or rods (4" long) under the carb slide cutaways as tell-tales, I notice that the size of cutaway isn't specified. I have 3½ cutaways and found 3/16" too small. I'd have tried 5mm drill bits but I don't have two – but I do have two 5.5mm drill bits and used those. I was rather surprised at how well they work as tell-tales – having remembered to wear my reading glasses for the job! It was very easy to spot when they moved as I adjusted the cables. As Bushman predicts, the idle was rather high after completing his process, just shy of 2,000rpm, but I think that means that the 5.5mm bits were suitable after all, for my 3½ slides. I also noted Bushman's statement that he's a 'big fan' of higher float settings (and therefore fuel levels) for Norton twins (and Triumphs), between 0.030" and 0.050" instead of 0.080", so set mine at 0.050" to give it a try.

One last thing – I'm still waiting to get my hands on a guitar string to probe the pilot jets, as Bushman also recommends. Both my pilot jets are definitely flowing fuel as – praise be! – I now have a pretty decent tickover, but I'll be interested to see what effect giving them a poke might produce. BTW I tried taking a piece of stainless wire down to 0.016", but kept stabbing myself in the finger with it (!), hence the wait for a guitar string ... Cheers!
 
I'm still waiting to get my hands on a guitar string to probe the pilot jets

Unless you have premiers the guitar string pushes the dirt in the pilot back into the fuel delivery circuit, it is then free to re-enter the pilot jet and could block it again or the 2 small holes into the main venturi, a 16 thou drill bit will collect the dirt in its spiral and then as you pull it out remove it outwards, clean the drill and the removed dirt cannot interfere again.
 
Bushman recommends draining the float bowls and, after probing the pilot jets, giving them a blast of carb cleaner to blow any debris down into the float bowls. I actually had the float bowls removed when I attempted this with my bit of wire – I'd got just about a 1mm length at the end down to 0.016" diameter – and plenty of spray dripped from the fuel-side orifices in the pilot circuits. You mean this hasn't worked for you? It's not something I've tried before ... Maybe I need to get myself a 0.016" drill bit.

p.s. I've just ordered a couple of 0.4mm drill bits, as my unit converter app tells me that 0.016" = 0.4064mm ... We'll see! Cheers.
 
A minor update, seeking advice or just moral support really! Having re-installed the old-style plastic floats I now have decent fuel levels in both my carbs. All the jets and the needles are new, and I have new 3½ hard-anodised slides, which is the cutaway that the MK2A is supposed to have. And, I've given the pilot jets a good poke with a 0.4mm drill bit, that seems barely to have made any difference. I also have a new air filter in my black plastic box, well oiled and still clean. So, finally, I feel that my bike not only runs well but also has plenty of power for me. Along the way, I also now have a pretty reliable tick-over, albeit around 1,000 – 1,100 rpm, maybe faster than some. Trouble is, there's a very narrow but gaping flat spot between idle and trickling-in-traffic speed, that tends to make things jerky if my clutch control isn't spot-on, there's a fair bit of popping on the overrun if I have the throttle open a crack, and the bike and I are really not happy around town, at least until everything's warmed up. Even then I remain nervous. Out on the road the bike's very crisp and satisfying indeed, but I can't help but spend a lot of time in town ... So ... According to the Amal carburettor tuning guide, the thing that you print out and turn into a dial that tells you what to do, I think I need to go to a smaller cutaway, so 3 instead of the 3½ that's specified for the MK2A. I can imagine that's entirely possible – for example the MK2A's supposed to have bean cans but I've got peashooters, because of which I've 260 main jets; and, weirdly, whereas the carbs came with 2-ring needles, they now have 4-ring needles – none of that may be strictly relevant, I just mean that there've been considerable changes. Should I bite the bullet and spend in the region of £50 on size 3 hard anodised slides, just in case? Or is there something else I might try? I feel like I've done everything else I can think of. It's occurred to me that it can't hurt to try – except the bank, of course – but if anyone thinks that'd be silly ...?

One other thing while I'm here – at cliffa's prompting I did a buoyancy comparison the other day, between a StayUp float and a perfectly serviceable old-style plastic one, that I hope was fairly scientific. I placed one of each in a float bowl with spindles and fitted both with aluminium needles – that seemed the best way to compare their buoyancy alone. I filled both float bowls to the brim with fuel, and the photo shows the result – the StayUp is vastly more buoyant, and this must be the cause of my problems in getting a useable fuel level with them. I'm on the point of sending them back to Burlen with a detailed explanation and photographs – I sincerely hope something comes of this other than a straightforward refund. Cheers.

MKIIA 850 carb needle: bean can vs peashooter
 
Before shelling out for richer slides make the pilot mixture richer and test, if the flat spot reduces then richer cutaways will work. But first check the slides are lifting in unison as one lifting first will give same symptoms is flat spot on opening throttle.
 
NortonMKIIA850, Thanks very much for going to the trouble of comparing the buoyancy. I really think Burlen should have done the same before starting to sell them. Can you imagine how many hours folks have been wasted trying to set the correct fuel level? Perhaps they could be persuaded to add a weight inside the floats during manufacture in order to achieve the correct height? (I was thinking of screwing a countersunk self tapper into the top of mine)

Sounds like you are running a little weak. Any chance you have an air leak after all the work you've been doing on your carbs? Popping on the overrun is normally a good indicator.


Cheers,

cliffa.
 
Thanks cliffa – from what Burlen said to someone somewhere (!), the StayUp has an outer, ethanol-proof coating, so adding a weight to the outside somehow would help but it sounds like putting a screw in there could cause problems later ...? About air leaks, that's always possible, except I haven't disturbed either the manifolds or the carb bodies while I've been fart-arsing around – I didn't have this problem, that I recall, before the start of the adventure that's been played out in this thread, but it wouldn't take a mo to check for air leaks so I'll try that too. Cheers!
 
cliffa said:
Thanks very much for going to the trouble of comparing the buoyancy. I really think Burlen should have done the same before starting to sell them. Can you imagine how many hours folks have been wasted trying to set the correct fuel level?


I've replaced four white floats with StayUps so far and I found there to be no significant difference in fuel level.
 
Popping on the over-run is usually an indication of a leak in the exhaust system. A flat spot or a cough when you use the throttle is the usual symptom of lean jetting. It will happen if you ride the bike without warming it up, when you have got the jetting right. However,it should not happen when the motor is warm.
 
L.A.B., I find it hard to believe that Burlen would've put StayUps on the market if they didn't know whether or not they worked, so it must be the case that many work as intended, but my photo, and one posted previously by cliffa, show that there's definitely something up with some of them – presumably some sort of inconsistency in the manufacturing process ...? Anyway, I personally put a lot of effort into trying to get mine to work, to the point that I'm heartily sick of fiddling those float bowls off and on again – not something that I've ever had a problem with before!

The exhaust system is definitely not leaking acotrel – I recently fitted new, unbalanced downpipes with new sealing rings, and re-plated silencers, and was obsessive about letting it all bed in and snugging them up, the downpipes don't move and are now lockwired. Although I do know what you mean – my Z650 had an ill-fitting Motad 4-into-1 that would pop on the overrun. At present it's happening on my Commando both cold and warmed up. We shall see – cheers!
 
L.A.B. said:
cliffa said:
Thanks very much for going to the trouble of comparing the buoyancy. I really think Burlen should have done the same before starting to sell them. Can you imagine how many hours folks have been wasted trying to set the correct fuel level?


I've replaced four white floats with StayUps so far and I found there to be no significant difference in fuel level.



That's interesting L.A.B. I wonder if Burlen have changed something? As you can see earlier in the thread when I set the fuel level correctly, the top of the stay up was approx 8mm above the top of the bowl.

When I called Burlen, they said "yes, some do that" and to set the top of the float level with the top edge of the float bowl. (which sets the fuel level below the recommended height).
 
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