Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?

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Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?
 
concours said:
View attachment 84712
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I will check that when I get everything back, but the bearing, unlike the one in your post, has quite a large radius so I don't see there being any problem seating the sleeve gear fully into the bearing inner race. Even if the sleeve gear isn't seating fully it is not causing the bind as without the nut tightened on the inner case end there is ample end float.
 
concours said:
O.D. of the bearing, versus the O.D. of the one removed?
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I can not now accurately measure the diameters of the bearings as I had to use a diamond wheel and chisel to get them off the new sleeve gear.

Here is a picture of the inner race after it was split to remove it. Note the ample radius that does not seem to be present on your bearing.

Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?


Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?


The new RCB bearing that I sourced from KAMAN bearing is similar. I'm thinking that you might have had a faulty bearing instead of a faulty sleeve gear.
 
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Dan1950 said:
If the sleeve gear was misaligned with the bearing bore there would be runout at the sleeve gear and there was none. .000" runout.

However, the bearing could be misaligned in the case and still show .000: runout.
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Any chance of seeing your measurement method for checking runout? Just curious because I might be going into my trans sometime this summer.
 
MikeG said:
Any chance of seeing your measurement method for checking runout? Just curious because I might be going into my trans sometime this summer.
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I don't have the sleeve gear or bearing in hand right now so I can't "show" you the method.

It is, however the standard magnetic mount dial indicator setup and my vise/dial indicator mounting will probably not work with what you may have.

Basically you clamp the GB case in the vise (I clamped on the bottom pivot boss) and secure your dial indicator with the plunger riding on the smooth cylindrical area of the sleeve gear outboard of the sprocket splines.

I can however show you my rudimentary "V" block that I made from some 3/4" X 1/8" aluminum strap a vise and a large Bastard file.

Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?




Here is my magnetic mount dial indicator secured to my vise checking runout at 3 places along the mainshaft. There is not enough flat cylindrical area next to the clutch end thread to use the indicator.

youtube.com

Checking Runout Norton Commando Gearbox Mainshaft

youtube.com youtube.com
 
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Dan1950 said:
It is, however the standard magnetic mount dial indicator setup and my vise/dial indicator mounting will probably not work with what you may have.

I can however show you my rudimentary "V" block that I made from some 3/4" X 1/8" aluminum strap a vise and a large Bastard file.

Here is my magnetic mount dial indicator secured to my vise checking runout at 3 places along the mainshaft. There is not enough flat cylindrical area next to the clutch end thread to use the indicator.

youtube.com

Checking Runout Norton Commando Gearbox Mainshaft

youtube.com youtube.com
Click to expand...
Can't get any straighter than that! Even the 1/10 indicator isn't moving. That's so straight, if I didn't trust you, I would say you've to the indicator locked!
 
marshg246 said:
Can't get any straighter than that! Even the 1/10 indicator isn't moving. That's so straight, if I didn't trust you, I would say you've to the indicator locked!
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That's what is puzzling. Everything runs true, right down to the sleeve gear. The mainshaft spins freely in the sleeve gear until the inner case is pulled up against the GB case.
 
Probably one of my many misunderstandings....

There is a note about layshaft and mainshaft bind during reassembly in the manual I have and it talks about the kick start pawl not being behind its stop. Might only be relevant when the cover refuses to go back on though. If tightened all the way under that condition the cover may crack or become permanently distorted.

You are probably well aware of that. I did not read all the responses or trial and error notes. Just thought I'd throw it out there since it's still not working out.
 
concours said:
"However, the bearing could be misaligned in the case and still show .000: runout."


:)
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That is what I am thinking. When I get my sleeve gear and bearing back from the machinist I am going to very carefully install the sleeve and inner case bearings. I think the press will allow me to assure that both bearings are seated fully/squarely and the properly fitting sleeve gear will probably allow a slight bit of self alignment since the bearing is a single row ball bearing. With the .002" interference fit it caused a very slight amount of drag in the bearing itself. Not enough to be concerned with seizure, but still not 100% to spec and it certainly wouldn't allow any alignment tolerance IMO.
 
Schwany said:
Probably one of my many misunderstandings....

There is a note about layshaft and mainshaft bind during reassembly in the manual I have and it talks about the kick start pawl not being behind its stop. Might only be relevant when the cover refuses to go back on though. If tightened all the way under that condition the cover may crack or become permanently distorted.

You are probably well aware of that. I did not read all the responses or trial and error notes. Just thought I'd throw it out there since it's still not working out.
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I am getting the bind with nothing more than the bare mainshaft, sleeve gear assembly installed in the GB case.
 
OK I had a feeling I was probably way off base. I thought you were further along in the reassembly and had all the parts back from the machinist. Obviously, I skipped ahead too far.

I like the press. You'll get there.
 
Dan1950 said:
I don't have the sleeve gear or bearing in hand right now so I can't "show" you the method.

It is, however the standard magnetic mount dial indicator setup and my vise/dial indicator mounting will probably not work with what you may have.

Basically you clamp the GB case in the vise (I clamped on the bottom pivot boss) and secure your dial indicator with the plunger riding on the smooth cylindrical area of the sleeve gear outboard of the sprocket splines.

I can however show you my rudimentary "V" block that I made from some 3/4" X 1/8" aluminum strap a vise and a large Bastard file.

Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?




Here is my magnetic mount dial indicator secured to my vise checking runout at 3 places along the mainshaft. There is not enough flat cylindrical area next to the clutch end thread to use the indicator.

youtube.com

Checking Runout Norton Commando Gearbox Mainshaft

youtube.com youtube.com
Click to expand...
When you measured runout of the shaft when it was installed in the sleeve gear where did you mount the indicator base?
 
Schwany said:
OK I had a feeling I was probably way off base. I thought you were further along in the reassembly and had all the parts back from the machinist. Obviously, I skipped ahead too far.

I like the press. You'll get there.
Click to expand...
I could have completely rebuilt an external oiler Panhead engine and transmission in the time I already have invested in this gearbox.

It's a good thing I have learned to have patience in my advanced years.
MikeG said:
When you measured runout of the shaft when it was installed in the sleeve gear where did you mount the indicator base?
Click to expand...
I have a flat anvil area on my large Wilton vise.

Here is a picture of the magnetic mount on my vise when I measure layshaft end float.

Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?



The case would have been rotated 180 degrees in both the vertical and horizontal axis and the dial indicator mounted for vertical measurement to find mainshaft and sleeve gear runout.
 
Dan1950 said:
That is what I am thinking. When I get my sleeve gear and bearing back from the machinist I am going to very carefully install the sleeve and inner case bearings. I think the press will allow me to assure that both bearings are seated fully/squarely and the properly fitting sleeve gear will probably allow a slight bit of self alignment since the bearing is a single row ball bearing. With the .002" interference fit it caused a very slight amount of drag in the bearing itself. Not enough to be concerned with seizure, but still not 100% to spec and it certainly wouldn't allow any alignment tolerance IMO.
Click to expand...
You did the right thing to address the bind, it would have haunted the shifting, like a dragging clutch.
 
Dan1950 said:
I could have completely rebuilt an external oiler Panhead engine and transmission in the time I already have invested in this gearbox.

It's a good thing I have learned to have patience in my advanced years.

I have a flat anvil area on my large Wilton vise.

Here is a picture of the magnetic mount on my vise when I measure layshaft end float.

Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?



The case would have been rotated 180 degrees in both the vertical and horizontal axis and the dial indicator mounted for vertical measurement to find mainshaft and sleeve gear runout.
Click to expand...
I may be wrong here, but I'm thinking that that setup will only give you an indication of runout in relation to the vice. To know if you sleeve gear is concentric to the case you must mount the indicator on the case, and same goes for the shaft in the gear especially. The mag base must be mounted to the sleeve gear.
 
MikeG said:
I may be wrong here, but I'm thinking that that setup will only give you an indication of runout in relation to the vice. To know if you sleeve gear is concentric to the case you must mount the indicator on the case, and same goes for the shaft in the gear especially. The mag base must be mounted to the sleeve gear.
Click to expand...
Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?


It doesn't matter where you mount the indicator. It is the relationship of the plunger in the indicator to the part being gauged for runout or end float. To be fair, to get an exact measurement the plunger must be perpendicular to the part, but with .000 runout there is no need for calibration. Even when runout or end float is present, the fact that the plunger might be a few degrees from perpendicular is "splitting hairs".

Look at the video of the mainshaft runout. The jury rigged "V" block is not squared to the vise or indicator but it will still detect any runout.
 
Dan1950 said:
Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?


It doesn't matter where you mount the indicator. It is the relationship of the plunger in the indicator to the part being gauged for runout or end float. To be fair, to get an exact measurement the plunger must be perpendicular to the part, but with .000 runout there is no need for calibration. Even when runout or end float is present, the fact that the plunger might be a few degrees from perpendicular is "splitting hairs".

Look at the video of the mainshaft runout. The jury rigged "V" block is not squared to the vise or indicator but it will still detect any runout.
Click to expand...
.
 
I agree, the shaft setup is fine as you are not measuring it against anything but itself. The sleeve gear on the other hand is being measured against it's concentricity and squareness in the case. Mounting the base as you have will not tell you that.
 
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