Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?

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marshg246 said:
Workshop manual 065146

Section D5, Step 10: "Remove the sleeve gear by tapping gently through the bearing into the gearbox"

Section D9, Step 8: "Fit the countershaft (sleeve gear) through the bearing and seal. Fit sprocket spacer in place inside seal"

I've done quite a few - never had to press a sleeve gear into a bearing and would not if the need arose - too much chance of damaging the case pressing it in and later pressing it out. Of course, they are not supposed to be loose in the bearing. Generally, you start it into the bearing wiggling and once in a little it will slide in with no wiggle at all. Sometimes they will get part way in a get stuck - usually means a bit of grit, lint, or maybe dust - pull it out, clean and try again.

In truth, even if it was an easy slip fit in the bearing it wouldn't matter as the bearing spacer and sprocket are sandwiched together and tightened.
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Yes I remember the original sleeve gear being quite easy to tap out of the bearing. When I tried to install the new sleeve gear in the new bearing it would not "tap in". I should have stopped there and investigated.

No damage to the case when pressing the gear into the bearing as I had the inner race supported with a 1 1/4" pipe nipple.

The challenge, as I see it, will be to get the sleeve gear out of the bearing after the whole assembly is pressed out of the case. Of course the bearing will be damaged by pressing against the balls anyway.

First order of business is to get the sleeve bearing out of the case.
 
Dan, did you source that sleeve gear bearing from Kaman? (I saw your wheel bearing post, begs the question)
 
Dan1950 said:
Yes I remember the original sleeve gear being quite easy to tap out of the bearing. When I tried to install the new sleeve gear in the new bearing it would not "tap in". I should have stopped there and investigated.

No damage to the case when pressing the gear into the bearing as I had the inner race supported with a 1 1/4" pipe nipple.

The challenge, as I see it, will be to get the sleeve gear out of the bearing after the whole assembly is pressed out of the case. Of course the bearing will be damaged by pressing against the balls anyway.

First order of business is to get the sleeve bearing out of the case.
Click to expand...
Even though you'll probably destroy the seal in the process, I recommend heating the case until the bearing falls out or at least comes out easily. Pressing bearings in and out of aluminum cases can cause damage and can cause the case to not hold the bearing as well next time.
 
concours said:
Dan, did you source that sleeve gear bearing from Kaman? (I saw your wheel bearing post, begs the question)
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The bearing was from Andover Norton. I plan to source a replacement from Kaman. It's a KSM (Japan) 1654 I also am looking to source the inner cover bearing from Kaman too as I stripped everything out except for the roller layshaft bearing. There is no number on the inner cover bearing.

I got everything dismantled. Had to take a diamond wheel and chisel to the bearing. It appears that the new sleeve gear is about .002" larger OD than the original.

I replaced the original sleeve gear as well as the layshaft mate because there was a bit of wear on the teeth.

My god the old 1936-1990 Hog transmission has it all over this one. If you know how to fit individual rollers in .0002" increments its a piece of cake. No pressing bearings or bushings in the whole mixer. Only tricky part is setting up the distances of the shifter forks. That took a jig. I used to go down to the local Harley shop when it was in an old gas station building and use their jig.
 
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marshg246 said:
Even though you'll probably destroy the seal in the process, I recommend heating the case until the bearing falls out or at least comes out easily. Pressing bearings in and out of aluminum cases can cause damage and can cause the case to not hold the bearing as well next time.
Click to expand...
The seal hasn't been installed yet and yes I heated the case.
 
marshg246 said:
too much chance of damaging the case pressing it in and later pressing it out. Of course, they are not supposed to be loose in the bearing. Generally, you start it into the bearing wiggling and once in a little it will slide in with no wiggle at all. Sometimes they will get part way in a get stuck - usually means a bit of grit, lint, or maybe dust - pull it out, clean and try again.

In truth, even if it was an easy slip fit in the bearing it wouldn't matter as the bearing, spacer and sprocket are sandwiched together and tightened.
Click to expand...

marshg246 said:
I've done quite a few - never had to press a sleeve gear into a bearing and would not if the need arose - too much chance of damaging the case pressing it in and later pressing it out.
Click to expand...

As posted last week.

"I use a machined sleeve that fits over the sleeve gear outer end so that when the sleeve gear is installed in the bearing, that sleeve seats on the bearing inner race so there is no pressure on the bearing itself."
That of course also isolates the bearing from the case by default.
 
Time Warp said:
As posted last week.

"I use a machined sleeve that fits over the sleeve gear outer end so that when the sleeve gear is installed in the bearing, that sleeve seats on the bearing inner race so there is no pressure on the bearing itself."
That of course also isolates the bearing from the case by default.
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Yes, you made that clear. You should not have to press a sleeve gear into the bearing as I posted with manual passages.
 
marshg246 said:
Yes, you made that clear. You should not have to press a sleeve gear into the bearing as I posted with manual passages.
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Your idea of pressing seems very different to mine.
Pressing could be 2 lbs pressure to 200 tons and in between.

The workshop manual means little to me besides part placement or suggested tolerances, many of the manuals of the time were aimed at the home mechanic with basic tools hence some of the procedures suggested.
You can either do this type of assembly in general easily (methodical) or not is the bottom line. (It is part of my professional life so just an at home extension in a no time frame setting)

It was never revealed if this OP gearbox had the same suggested problem before disassembly.
Buying cheap measuring tools and presses is not the answer (im humble o)
 
Perhaps a reminder this is the one dimension (typing on a flat surface) internet not real life.
 
Time Warp said:
Your idea of pressing seems very different to mine.
Pressing could be 2 lbs pressure to 200 tons and in between.

The workshop manual means little to me besides part placement or suggested tolerances, many of the manuals of the time were aimed at the home mechanic with basic tools hence some of the procedures suggested.
You can either do this type of assembly in general easily (methodical) or not is the bottom line. (It is part of my professional life so just an at home extension in a no time frame setting)

It was never revealed if this OP gearbox had the same suggested problem before disassembly.
Buying cheap measuring tools and presses is not the answer (im humble o)
Click to expand...
Read post #21
 
Time Warp said:
Perhaps a reminder this is the one dimension (typing on a flat surface) internet not real life.
Click to expand...
My mother taught me to consider the source when someone tries to insult me - done!

AFAIK, the workshop manuals at the time were not available to the public.

I've rebuilt 3 Norton gearboxes in the last two weeks - about 10 in the last year. All but one the sleeve gear was a snug slip fit and that one had a burr that was easily removed. If you look in the other thread on this, you see that I tried a new AN sleeve gear I have in stock, and it too is a snug slip fit.
 
Time Warp said:
Buying cheap measuring tools and presses is not the answer (im humble o)
Click to expand...
Time Warp said:
Perhaps a reminder this is the one dimension (typing on a flat surface) internet not real life.
Click to expand...
marshg246 said:
My mother taught me to consider the source when someone tries to insult me - done!
Click to expand...
Main Shaft Dragging in Sleeve Gear?
 
if the shaft rotates freely in the sleeve gear without T/S bearing / inner case in place and the main shaft is running straight and true between bearing surfaces
it could be a badly machined sleeve gear inner and outer bearing surfaces could be miss aligned bear in mind the working surface will be approx 3" long and a half thou miss alignment will be problematic
if you have an old sleeve gear test fit it with the new bearings and shaft if the problem goes away it points to the sleeve gear possibly machined surfaces not concentric with each other

also check end float between the bearings ( to test add a second inner case gasket ) new sleeve may be a few thou thicker or radius for the sleeve bearing face may be holding off a few thou
 
Frankie17 said:
if the shaft rotates freely in the sleeve gear without T/S bearing / inner case in place and the main shaft is running straight and true between bearing surfaces
it could be a badly machined sleeve gear inner and outer bearing surfaces could be miss aligned bear in mind the working surface will be approx 3" long and a half thou miss alignment will be problematic
if you have an old sleeve gear test fit it with the new bearings and shaft if the problem goes away it points to the sleeve gear possibly machined surfaces not concentric with each other

also check end float between the bearings ( to test add a second inner case gasket ) new sleeve may be a few thou thicker or radius for the sleeve bearing face may be holding off a few thou
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the old as well as the new sleeve gear are at the machinists getting the OD of the sleeve gear reduced a few thousandths for a snug slip fit in the bearig just like the original sleeve gear so a trial fitting is not in the offing.

The bushings in the old sleeve gear have noticeably more clearance than the new probably due to many years of service. I don't think any difference in binding would reveal much as there doesn't seem like it would take much additional clearance to free up the assembly.

I have run a dial indicator on the mainshaft, both installed and in "V" blocks and there is no runout nor is there any measurable runout in the sleeve gear as installed. That is not an indication whether or not there may be some misalignment in the bearings as installed in the case. I set the sleeve gear bearing in red Loctite and it seems that the Loctite set up immediately from the heat from the case that was taken out of a 350F oven. That might have prevented getting the bearing seated completely square in the case.

I have removed both mainshaft bearings and with the aid of my press working with a heated case and chilled bearings I hope to get the bearings seated square and true without Loctite. Having learned how to properly use my bore gauges, after careful measurements, I have determined that the sleeve gear bearing is .002" interference fit in the GB case and the inner cover bearing has .0015" interference fit. That should preclude the need for any Loctite to keep the bearings secure in their respective bores.

As far as insufficient end play in the mainshaft? Without the nut torqued at the inner case end of the mainshaft there is ample end play so that is not contributing to the problem.
 
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Dan1950 said:
Yes. I had the sleeve gear pressed into the bearing with a 1/1/4" x 2" pipe nipple supporting the inner race. I suspect that the mainshaft bearing on the other end may not be seated properly. I will check that out later today.
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My .02-if you had to press the bearing onto the sleeve gear and it was an incorrectly radiused bearing such as AN supplied Concours, chances are pretty good that the bearing was cocked enough to cause misalignment that could bind the main shaft. Did you examine the bearing after you cut it off?
 
MikeG said:
My .02-if you had to press the bearing onto the sleeve gear and it was an incorrectly radiused bearing such as AN supplied Concours, chances are pretty good that the bearing was cocked enough to cause misalignment that could bind the main shaft. Did you examine the bearing after you cut it off?
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If the sleeve gear was misaligned with the bearing bore there would be runout at the sleeve gear and there was none. .000" runout.

However, the bearing could be misaligned in the case and still show .000: runout.
 
Dan1950 said:
I'm assembling my gearbox with a new sleeve gear and main shaft bearings. There is no runout on either end of the main shaft nor is there any runout on the sleeve gear. The main shaft slips into the sleeve gear and rotates feely but as the inner case is slid over the studs in the case the main shaft starts to bind. However, it does not get any worse as the nuts are snugged down.

I can hold the main shaft with slip joint pliers and rotate the sleeve gear by hand but it does have a bit of drag.

Is this an indication of a serious problem?

In the morning I think I will put my dial indicator on the end face of the sleeve gear to see if it might be misaligned.
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And you are sure you have your 1st gear pinion the right way round? If reversed will cause binding.
 
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