Li Battery failure

David you were just smart and wise enough to over $ize the Li battery rather than go by the advertised ah equivalent to fit and maybe lucky enough to get a run of batteries that the manufacture process went as planned. Please report back after another year for our ongoing education. Hope its good cost effective weight and mileage saving news.

I put in a 14ah Shorai replacing the 14 ah AGM because that is what matches up to the 200 watt stator and 200 watt Podtronic unit. I believe a balance between components is the key to reliability and functionality of the system. No e-start but can run the light all the time without much concern like before.

I still have the AGM that i use for my timing light and it still reads 12.4 without a charge since March. Oh well, it's there if i need it.

pdl999 said:

I think this discussion is going astray for want of proper understanding of vehicle electrical systems, which are nominally called 12V but in reality run at around 13.2V. This is determined by the charging system voltage, not the battery voltage. I can't see how anyone can conclude that vehicles have 12V systems so therefore you can't use a Li-ion battery. That is just plain wrong.....



So actually I am a fan of these batteries and think these anti posts are unfair to the technology. Maybe I am more sympathetic because I am an electronics engineer and understand how to specify and use them. Even so, if you use a decent regulator system on the bike and you have the correct charger for the battery I think the inexpert user should have no problem.

David

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David, my point is very simple. This is the warning direct from Shorai, it can be seen on the voltage/power remaining chart above-

"Do not allow resting Voltage to fall below 12.86 volts."
The fact that you drained your battery below this point and got away with it has nothing to do with understanding the technologly properly. In fact, if you understand what Shorai is telling you, you just got lucky, but you also have voided the warranty.
Now ask how many of the old bikes owned by the members of this forum have a system that never falls below 12.86 volts resting? The answer is very few or more likely none. They do not "run around 13.2volts" as you suggest. I have checked voltages hundreds of times on many old bikes with all sorts of different charging systems and it is very rare to see resting voltage above 13, even though the alt or generator is putting out something above 13 volts peak. This is because of load and idling or low rpm time. Discharge is happening then. All in all, with load taken care of, if these systems maintain a resting battery voltage somewhere are 12.5, they are working as intended and the lead acid batteries they were designed for are quite happy. So according to Shorai's own information shown above, their batteries are not compatible with these electrical systems.
As far as modern bikes go, my own modern bike does not maintain resting voltage above 12.86. The headlights run when the ignition is switched on and resting voltage at the end of a long run is in the 12.6 to 12.7 range. At this level, again not according to my info but according to Shorai's information, the battery is below their danger level and only holds 5 to 10 % remaining power, hardly ideal for a cold start, or for battery longevity.

Glen

Glen
I'm sorry but you have misunderstood this again. If a Li-ion battery is charged it will maintain a voltage above 12.86V for about one year all on its own. When the bike is running the charging system will ensure the battery is fully charged and when you switch the engine off the battery will hold that charge (for up to one year). So where is the problem?
David

The problem is load and discharge, which all of our systems do. We are not storing the battery for a year we are using it. You may never have ridden a bike equipped with an ammeter, but those of us who do get to see discharge on every ride.

Glen

That still doesn't make sense. While the engine is running, the charging system should provide enough power for the various loads i.e. the lights, ignition and charging the battery. If you are sitting at low revs and the charge is inadequate then the battery makes up the deficit. If you have the correct size Li-ion battery e.g. 18Ah which is actually like a 9Ah lead acid then it will easily cope with those short term situations. I really think you don't want to believe these batteries are any good at all?? but is that me just being provocative?

Very few if any of these charging systems keep up to the load when idling at a traffic light, they discharge, sometimes quite heavily. They are not like modern automotive charging systems which put out all kinds of power even at idle. The charging systems on these bikes need more rpm to bring the voltage up and start to charge.
So when you are sitting at night in heavy traffic, headlights on, possibly point/coil high draw ignition, inching ahead, blipping the throttle as you notice the lights are getting progressively dimmer, the thing you really need is a great big old lead acid battery that has a ton of capacity and will still function below 12 volts, nevermind 13.
What happens to the Li battery in this scenario is, lights out, limp or protection mode for battery(5.4 volts), engine dead, call Triple A.
Been there and so have a few others.
You are correct, after trying them on two older machines, I know these batteries are not a good fit for our older bikes with their relatively low output charging systems.
If you were to do a poll of all the Commando owners here asking how many had batteries with resting voltages above and below 12.86, you will find a landslide on the below 12.86 side.
That, and the info from Shorai on minimum voltage requirement, tells you all you really need to know.

Glen

Glen, I see where you are coming from but both my bikes have standard charging systems in terms of capacity but I know they are up to spec. I think what you are saying is that a Li-ion battery is no good with a sub-standard, below OEM spec system, which is fair comment. Both mine work fine and I use daytime dipped beam (55W) all the time. If that's what you mean then I still think it is unfair to condemn the technology where people are connecting them up to knackered equipment.

That is not what I am saying, though no doubt some of the charging systems in use here will invariably be putting out less than they were originally capable of, adding to the problem.
I am saying that even if you have new equipment installed, whether it is original spec or somewhat upgraded, the great preponderance of these bikes do not maintain a resting voltage above the required minimum level for Li batteries. I have an new Alton alternator and Podtronics regulator on one bike. It maintains a higher voltage than even a totally healthy original charging system, but still does not keep voltage above 12.86 at all times, or even most of the time.
What sort of system does your Commando have that it never lets voltage fall below that level? I have not seen one
BTW, the requirement for the Ballistic is even higher, warranty is void if the battery voltage EVER falls below 13 volts. Anyone ever leave a bike parked and forget to turn off the headlight for a few minutes?

I think if you make a habit of checking the resting voltage of your Commando battery, you will see that it is generally below the required level for a Li battery. That is unless you have mounted an alternator from a 2013 Mazda or the like, then you might see those resting voltages.
If some other owners would post the resting voltage of their batteries (a couple of posters already did and they were around 12.5, which is really quite healthy for these bikes) you would see what I am getting at.
Glen

+1 for an ammeter. Voltmeters are a necessity with a lithium battery but an ammeter tells you in real time what's up. I have a 14PbEQ Shorai fed by a 180 watt Lucas 3 phase with a Podtronics rect/reg setup. Nothing knackered about it. I take this graph for what it says, and my ammeter bears it out. Low beam, brake light, tail light, thermal turn signal will put my charging system in the red to the tune of about 10 amps at idle. Idle set at 1000rpm but it only takes 1500rpm to center the needle. It's been more than sufficent for a lead acid battery.

In fact my Shorai replaced a 7amphr Yuasa that never let me down. Last summer I forgot to shut off my bike with the key, with the Yuasa. Came back in 30-45min and the bike with a Boyer Micro Power wouldn't start. Came back after 30 min, started ok. According to the ammeter it took about 30min of about 4 amp charging to settle the account in the battery. I think an accident like that could be fatal to a lithium battery.

It's vital that you get a lithium battery that's got the correct storage capacity. A PbEQ rating is about 1/3 the actual storage we are accustomed to dealing with in a lead acid battery. If you want to replace a 5amphr lead battery get a 14PbEQ lithium if you want to even stand a chance. Even then, you are going to cross that line in the sand of going under 13v. It's a matter of time. Maybe it's causing incremental losses to the battery. Time will tell. If I had it to do over I would have gotten an 18-20 PbEQ lithium.

I can't speak for the Ballistic product but I think there is a misinterpretation of the minimum resting voltage for the Shorai. I think they mean resting as in the battery is out of use for some time i.e. that it should not be stored unless it is fully charged. I don't think they mean the short periods with an engine running at low speed where there is a charging deficit. In the latter situation, the battery gets charged as soon as you are on the move again so no harm is done. If it is the case that ANY drop below 12.86V is not tolerated then the product is not fit for purpose and I just don't believe these people are selling thousands of batteries that are not fit for purpose.

True, if you stop the engine and then leave the lights on then you could damage the battery.
On my Commando I can't do that because if I turn the ignition key off, the lights go off too. On my Trident I have a 3 minute timer in circuit that turns off the lights if I forget. So yes, you need to think about how to avoid that situation if you want/need to use a Li-ion battery.

pdl999 said:

I can't speak for the Ballistic product but I think there is a misinterpretation of the minimum resting voltage for the Shorai. I think they mean resting as in the battery is out of use for some time i.e. that it should not be stored unless it is fully charged. I don't think they mean the short periods with an engine running at low speed where there is a charging deficit. In the latter situation, the battery gets charged as soon as you are on the move again so no harm is done. If it is the case that ANY drop below 12.86V is not tolerated then the product is not fit for purpose and I just don't believe these people are selling thousands of batteries that are not fit for purpose.

True, if you stop the engine and then leave the lights on then you could damage the battery.
On my Commando I can't do that because if I turn the ignition key off, the lights go off too. On my Trident I have a 3 minute timer in circuit that turns off the lights if I forget. So yes, you need to think about how to avoid that situation if you want/need to use a Li-ion battery.

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That is your interpretation of what resting Voltage is, but it does not say that anywhere in the Shorai or Ballistic literature. The Ballistic warranty, for all it is worth, states that if cell damage occurs from letting the battery see voltage below 13, warranty is void, period. Warranties tend to go strictly by the wording of the warranty rather than by individual interpretations of what it might mean.

The 18 month old Ballistic that has failed on me is a 20pb/eq 12 cell. It replaced a 7 AH lead acid battery.
At the time of purchase I bought the most powerful Ballistic battery I could fit in, thinking I might add estart to that bike at some time. It had adequate power, though is nowhere near a lead acid equivalent of 20 ah as the marketing claim
It failed for some reason, possibly because it spent too much time below 13volts.

The battery on the second bike is a 9pb/eq. This was the suggested battery to replace a 7 ah lead acid. We now know it is not adequate. Why rate something as a 9 amphour lead acid equivalent when it is not? At best this is very misleading advertising. Is it likely that the salespeople for these products all know that the pb/eq number is pretty much meaningless unless you divide by three? Or do they sell based on that number, which is the intention of the number in the first place, pb/eq, lead/equivalent?
It runs out of power quite frequently, so I carry a spare lead acid. The Li battery likely won't last very long.

Glen

Hmm...

Lead acids last about 2 seasons for me. Don't matter which bike it's in.

I put the AGM from MikesXS in my 75 XS 650, First one lasted 8 months. He warrantied it, second one lasted 8 months.

I don't like AGM. Although I have one in my truck, works great.

I have an 8 cell Ballistic in my Combat, so far 2 years not a hiccup.

I haven't even thrown a charger on it.

Could just be my luck thou.

I have an Optima battery I purchased 10 years ago for my 78 F-100, It's still going. It's my spare battery now since the truck died.

Always works when I need it.,

If Optima made a cycle battery I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

I have reservations with these type batteries combined with antiquated charging systems along with the voltage regulation.
Be that over or under charging.

I had considered a Shorai for the DR but being electric start only I need for convincing of the long term reliability.
No kick,sand and the middle of nowhere. :?

A lot depends on how the bike is used. Is it just the occasional short ride down a country road, always at good speed, or do you get often caught in city traffic with lights on, or possibly in cold weather running a heated vest then hit stop and go traffic?
Our systems can do this, but the voltage will see some low numbers on occasion, a long way below 13volts.

Glen

bwolfie said:

Hmm...

Lead acids last about 2 seasons for me. Don't matter which bike it's in.

I put the AGM from MikesXS in my 75 XS 650, First one lasted 8 months. He warrantied it, second one lasted 8 months.

I don't like AGM. Although I have one in my truck, works great.

I have an 8 cell Ballistic in my Combat, so far 2 years not a hiccup.

I haven't even thrown a charger on it.

Could just be my luck thou.

I have an Optima battery I purchased 10 years ago for my 78 F-100, It's still going. It's my spare battery now since the truck died.

Always works when I need it.,

If Optima made a cycle battery I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

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You just need to try a QUALITY AGM battery, it's not the AGM part, but rather the "Made in China" part. I'll not buy FLA anymore, the potential for leakage is too damaging. I've had this AGM in my cruiser for 7 years, the Notrun for 2, my snowmobile for 9 years, ATV for 6. http://www.dekabatteries.com/default.aspx?pageid=510

Yes to Quality. Odyssey 680 PC. 5 yrs. now ,settles in at 12.8. A.G.M. vibration resistant. Do Nortons vibrate ?

Commando's should only vibrate in a light petting blunted sense down low then about disappear soon after so no a Cdo should not cause vibe damage to any battery. Severe road/off road shocks and crashes could and do of course. I like the standard brand grey cased alarm battery myself.

concours said:

You just need to try a QUALITY AGM battery, it's not the AGM part, but rather the "Made in China" part. I'll not buy FLA anymore, the potential for leakage is too damaging. I've had this AGM in my cruiser for 7 years, the Notrun for 2, my snowmobile for 9 years, ATV for 6. http://www.dekabatteries.com/default.aspx?pageid=510

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I'll verify the AGM, the original Miata Panasonic AGM batteries last at least 10 if not 12 or more years, but you can't get them here in the US. Shipping is too expensive. I think a quality AGM should last at least 5 years if not more. That's why I recommended the Yuasa from Clubman, but it can probably be procured elsewhere too. I think some confuse gel cell with AGM. Forget cheap AGM or gel cell.
Actually, I've got the original lead acid in my 03 Dakota, now that's not bad either, for a Chrysler product.

Dave
69S

I have been getting 4 to 5 years from the cheap Chinese Yuasa knock offs. Last time I bought one the supplier also had Yuasa for a bit more but it was made in China, so it seemed pointless. Four years from a 39 dollar battery on a shaky old motorcycle is quite decent. I do trickle charge them a couple of times thru the winter, that helps.


Glen