Layshaft bearing failure

If I remember correctly that is not a standard ball bearing. But has an ability to handle side loads better??

rons70commando said:

Wow! Why all the friction ( pun; get it?) over roller or ball bearings? Run what you want , it's your bike! Isnt there an oil thread somewhere?

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This is what we do here, Ron, it's our fun. You've been around long enough to know better. You must have an opinion on this, please share.

Anyhow, if i recall from reading service notes, or something like that, it was a bad batch of bearing from Portugal and the rest of the failure were more than likely from general abuse. Due to the catastrophic nature of the failures, fear was deeply ingrained into the riders psyche, hence the disynfunctional banter and one sided views.

I admit and am not ashamed to be part of this and many other types of endless debates of which there seem to be no definitve answer, except for my own of course. :lol: :mrgreen:

Hi all,

I replaced the original layshaft bearing in my 850 Interstate in 1980! This was long before there was all this much info about failure of the bearing, and of different types. I would have replaced it with a standard ball bearing from a local bearing specialist at that time. The bike has only done about 5000 miles since then (i'm ashamed to say) but it willl be getting more use this year so i'm wondering if I should replace it again, and if so what would be the most advisable type of bearing to use?

regards,

Dave

daveparry said:

Hi all,

I replaced the original layshaft bearing in my 850 Interstate in 1980! This was long before there was all this much info about failure of the bearing, and of different types. I would have replaced it with a standard ball bearing from a local bearing specialist at that time. The bike has only done about 5000 miles since then (i'm ashamed to say) but it willl be getting more use this year so i'm wondering if I should replace it again, and if so what would be the most advisable type of bearing to use?

regards,

Dave

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In all honesty the one you are most comfortable with. I will say this though, which every you choose, roller or ball, make sure it is one of the ones spoken of on this thread.

Not to get off the ball vs rollerbearing topic but I just replaced my bearing with the Andover ball that Fred from Old Britts stands by. Only problem now is when I gas it heavy from a stop it sounds like i'm redlining it, anything over 3500 rpm's in first. Basically can't get a fast start, even shifting quick to 2nd still seems like i'm riding too heavy in the wrong gear. Before I could take off very fast out of first and ride it a bit till I shifted. My mechanic said the new bearing on old gears have to adjust for a bit, but taking the fun out of an 850. Anybody have this experience after changing the bearings and will it adjust itself back to they way it was with a little bit of time. thanks C

73Norton said:

Not to get off the ball vs rollerbearing topic but I just replaced my bearing with the Andover ball that Fred from Old Britts stands by. Only problem now is when I gas it heavy from a stop it sounds like i'm redlining it, anything over 3500 rpm's in first. Basically can't get a fast start, even shifting quick to 2nd still seems like i'm riding too heavy in the wrong gear. Before I could take off very fast out of first and ride it a bit till I shifted. My mechanic said the new bearing on old gears have to adjust for a bit, but taking the fun out of an 850. Anybody have this experience after changing the bearings and will it adjust itself back to they way it was with a little bit of time. thanks C

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Are you saying your clutch is slipping? Popping out of gear? Be more specific.
Things like gears and bearings and such just don't settle in. They are what the are, straight mechanical.

72Norton, that is one of the weirdest symptoms and cause connections I've ever read. Crytpic description that could be taken to mean either clutch slip sense or bad drag-resistance sense. i'd first check how easy the whole drive train felt to turn w/o plugs in engine for sense of drag or slippage to deal with first. Hope it just clears up with hillbilly break in. Its hard to conceive of new bearing binding, unless already trashed, so my thoughts drift to primary case contents next.

I don't understand all the hooplah over which bearing to use. The answer is simple: the CORRECT one!

So basically I can't go fast enough to get it into 2nd, not sure what the term is but it seems to pop at 3500 not sure if it's slipping into neautral or what but makes a nasty redline sound and then have to slam it into 2nd at a speed that is not sufficient for 2nd so it's sputters until I heavily gas it up to speed. Problem is in Brooklyn you spend a lot of time shifting up and down thru the bottom 3. Really f@@ing annoying after dropping all this money can't ride it like that and heavy gassing into 2nd can put me into the back of some ones car that decides to stop and park or do a u turn, happened twice today?...

73Norton said:

So basically I can't go fast enough to get it into 2nd, not sure what the term is but it seems to pop at 3500 not sure if it's slipping into neautral or what but makes a nasty redline sound and then have to slam it into 2nd at a speed that is not sufficient for 2nd so it's sputters until I heavily gas it up to speed. Problem is in Brooklyn you spend a lot of time shifting up and down thru the bottom 3. Really f@@ing annoying after dropping all this money can't ride it like that and heavy gassing into 2nd can put me into the back of some ones car that decides to stop and park or do a u turn, happened twice today?...

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What you describe is your clutch slipping. Bring it back to the mechanic and explain the symptoms. And no, it won't heal itself, despite romantic old myths of "bedding in", etc.

It only happens in first gear, would that still be a clutch issue?

73Norton said:

It only happens in first gear, would that still be a clutch issue?

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Ohhhhh... elaberate on the "pop"... like a backfire "pop" or like a gears doing something OTHER than turning smoothly as they should? The word "slam" and "gearbox" shouldn't be in the same sentence :shock: WHY do you have to try and change up too soon? Again, this bike needs to see a mechanic, sooner rather than later. If the guy who did this doesn't have your confidence any longer, search for a more knowledgeable britbike mechanic. "new bearing, old gears having to adjust for a bit" is hogwash, so take it for what it is. A few scenario's possible.. didn't inspect thoroughly, not enough failed parts replaced, assembled improperly, parts left out.

73Norton said:

it seems to pop at 3500 not sure if it's slipping into neautral or what but makes a nasty redline sound

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73Norton said:

It only happens in first gear, would that still be a clutch issue?

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That doesn't sound like clutch slip, it sounds much more like the box is jumping out of 1st gear which isn't unusual if certain parts are worn inside the gearbox.

Slipping out of 1st is prime indication of its highly loaded paper thin bush destruction, which then tilt/loads cog and shift to fast eat up the other bushes. About half the bushes I've ordered for 3 tranny re-do's required ream fitting by laborious hand job the first time or by machinist after lesion learned. If run long enough with bad bushes the shifter dog faces get worn down weird too.

Thanks for your help everyone on this, getting warm and just want to ride! dropping a lot of money replacing parts. The pop seems like it slips out of gear and makes a loud whining sound like it's was ridden doing 40 in first, most of the time I was in traffic so not sure if it slipped into neutral, the immediate shift into second isn't smooth, mechanically speaking. So Hobot you think it needs the bushings replaced as well? Does this seem like a mechanic failure or just a chain reaction. It rode great for the past 9 months so not sure why putting in new bearings would suddenly bring up mechanical issues that weren't there or at least apparent while riding. Jealous of you guys that have open road outside your house, takes a good 45 to an hour see some trees and open two lane highway, but still fun as hell weaving thru heavy traffic and have a nice straightaway next to the east river which looks amazing at night. C

73Norton said:

Not to get off the ball vs rollerbearing topic but I just replaced my bearing with the Andover ball that Fred from Old Britts stands by.

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Exactly which layshaft bearing is fitted? As the "Andover" bearing is a roller not a ball.

If it is the roller bearing, did your mechanic check/shim the layshaft end play?
http://www.oldbritts.com/gearbox_a.html

Ugh, for gosh sakes man, its a Commando so who knows what single or combination of factors are splashing together is yours or our cases, till ya or someone else finally does exploratory surgery then closes up after fixing what it found. I am very leary of 1st cog bush as crashed me twice in same day, but only when going so super slow and cautious after some hellaous howling around tight twistes just fine, soon as loads got neurtralized by coasting on light feathery throttle to 'skillfully' keep even engine drag out of the equation, SLAP right out from under going 12-15 mph when rear crossed a 1" deep missing chunk of tarmac, I just stood up running to stay on feet then standing in mid lane watch Peel slide another 20 yrd into guard rail at 5ish mph, then after pick up and more zooming around, I came home being extra careful knowing what I'd just gotten away with into over and though deadly blinds, I let bike barely drift down slope 12 mph on idled engine drag to ease an easy turn into my drive way, when rear crossed a gap in rocks, jumped out 1st so rear slipped instant out on THE Gravel, landing bike mass/ineritia on my pelvis, fracturing he innominate wing and born fused L5/S1 segment, but so so happy I'd protected the brand new $700 b/g paint job.

So my reflex reaction at first hint of tranny hang up or slip out is assuming Norton worship posture and rituals again.

Next bad bushes that caused a belt to end up all packed in behind the alternator and crank pulley was the sleeve bush clutch basket wobbles.

The funiest stupidest issue I had was having kick starter get stuck down and not return to kick off, so removed peg stalk, [kicker came up, but so depressed/fogged, didn't register with me] then removed outer and inner covers not finding anything wrong, till putting back together felt the wear area on kicker against peg stalk, ugh, just a bit of external easy to fix clearance from a drop, ugh. This was after a whole drive train worth of prior faults so of course expected the worse again, but merely a new fault I'll never over look again. Reading about it is a lot easier way to learn to look everywhere.

It's been my experience that the Commando works fine until some issue becomes so large you finally notice it, and then things go 'bang'. Better to fettle them out before it comes to that, especially with the gearbox, it's not a magic potion from the engine to the wheel, it needs care and attention. If you can't do it yourself, get it off to a reliable Norton shop. I don't know if BigD is reliable or not, but there are a couple in CA that will do you good, I'm thinking Fair Spares to start. It won't be cheap.

Dave
69S

I think Dave's recommendation of calling Phil at Fair Spares is a good idea.

My Commando does the same thing. I think what he is describing is a symptom of too much play with the kickstart shaft. Supposedly an easy fix (that I am too busy / lazy / timid) to do myself but will have to when I replace my layshaft bearing later this year (transmission now sounds like a tractor transmission - too much gear "whirring" going on in there for my taste).

post130262.html?hilit=kickstart%20shim#p130262

try taking a gander at that...