- Joined
- Nov 6, 2008
- Messages
- 502
hi mark,looks like the spacer is missing from the top gearbox bolt,thats why the plate has pulled in
DogT said:Mark, what do you mean about having the swing arm solid against the plates? You have the cradle out and the swing arm is still attached? Lots of times the spindle that goes through the swing arm and the cradle is rusted like crazy and it takes a lot of beating or a hydraulic press to get it out. You may have to work on it with some acetone and brake fluid to loosen it up. There are brass bushings in the swing arm, but the spindle is steel and the cradle is steel and if it was not taken care of, it rusted tight. Oversize spindles are available so the cradle can be reamed out and reconditioned. Spindle item 21 here http://www.oldbritts.com/1971_g10.html The cradle is not shown.
Yes, your cradle/gearbox is missing the spacer. Item 34 here. http://www.oldbritts.com/1971_g5.html It goes inside the cradle next to the G.B. It happens a lot, people leave it out and wonder what that washer is for. Trouble is too it throws the gearbox out of being straight and sometimes even wears a hole in the primary from the swing arm spindle end.
marknorton said:
79x100 said:You don't suppose do you, that when NVT were first producing the MkIIIs, a batch of frames was made with the plates mounted wrongly and therefore unsuitable for hinged seats so rather than modify them, they used them up on the last 2As ?
bwolfie said:I picked up a frame, the one i'm using, date code puts it mid 75, looks just like this one.
79x100 said:That is odd L.A.B. . The larger gusset plate on the Mk111 should of course be on the outside on the drive side of the machine as it acts as the hinge mount. This is different from the timing side where the large gusset is on the inside as a mount for the lock.
This frame has both large gusset plates mounted on the inside edge of the tube with the smaller (earlier style) plates both on the outside.
You don't suppose do you, that when NVT were first producing the MkIIIs, a batch of frames was made with the plates mounted wrongly and therefore unsuitable for hinged seats so rather than modify them, they used them up on the last 2As ?
marknorton said:Its amazing the detail you guys know on these machines and thanks for all your input. It is all fascinationg.
Chris T said:Mark, congratulations on your purchase; it looks like an exciting project. I note your comment that you have “minimal mechanical knowledge”. I fell into that category when I rebuilt my bike (1970 Roadster) a couple of years ago – and I still do. As I read your posts I wondered if I had gained any experience as a novice that I could usefully pass on to you. Probably not a lot. There are many members of this forum who have much better knowledge and expertise than me. But despite that I proffer a few “idiots guide” observations – and choices - a bit of a case of the blind leading the partially blind. One thing that I have learned is that there are a bunch of choices for you to make; and it is probably easier to make them earlier in the process than later.
I welcome corrections to the mistakes and half truths that I will make below:
• You have already dismantled it. That was the easy bit. The hard bit is remembering where everything went; and in what order. If you haven’t taken sufficient photos and notes (it all seems obvious as you take it apart) the Andover Norton exploded diagrams (on their website) are very useful; I also used both a factory manual and a Haynes manual. I think that there is a factory manual on this site? There is somewhere on the net. I hope you don’t misplace too much in your transcontinental carriage. Take photos and notes on everything. At least cameras in phones make it easy.
• Other really good resources include the Old Britts site (I didn’t discover that until after completion of mine) and Captain Norton’s Notes. There are also a bunch of other great suppliers; in North America (for instance CNW and British Cycle Supply Co) but I suspect that you don’t need to go beyond the UK unless you want to purchase some aftermarket trick products such as those offered by Old Britts; CNW, or the US lightweight pistons and rods on offer. I bought Roy Bacon’s book and a book on restoring bikes; they both had their uses; but the Bacon book was fairly general and this site has very specific info.
What I really could do with is a complete quantified list of every nut bolt and washer on the frame. If I cannot get this then I guess that will be my winter mini project over Christmas. I would have thought there is one out there though, just cant find it anywhere. Has anyone any ideas?• What tools do you need? I acquired as I went; you probably have a clutch dismantler already; torque wrench; vernier calliper I was surprised how much I used that; -; a C spanner for the exhaust – I bought one from Norvil; it is a bit primitive –; spanners and screwdrivers; drifts; - it is very useful to have a drift that is slim enough to go through the isolastics and swingarm and use as temporary axles. I recall someone saying that the fasteners on the frame are generally UNF( or UNC – I don’t really know the difference – if there is one); the fasteners on the engine are often whitworth (I understand that whitworth thread is courser and therefore better in aluminium; amongst other things.
Yes I agree. Am going to paint frame and PC components• Paint or powdercoat? I powdercoated the frame and engine mounts but didn’t discover the warnings on the Old Britts site until after completion. I scratched my frame with a torque wrench, and couldn’t touch it up with paint. When I broke the petcock I spilled petrol onto the powdercoat which damaged it (I was able to put a transfer over that one). If I were doing it again, I might consider painting to keep thickness down and ensure ease of touch up.
• Replace fasteners or refurbish? I polished a lot of my fasteners; and of course they have all rusted. I am now replacing a lot with stainless, so instead of being a good mechanic and doing the job once, I have done it several times. In the long run I would have been better off to have replaced them early; but I found it difficult to get a local supplier and at the time it seemed expensive and difficult to order each one individually by part number. I am not aware that anyone supplies fasteners in “job lots” (although CNW do for the z plates); perhaps it might be worth forming a relationship with one of the UK people and seeing if that is possible. The site http://stainlessbits.com/link12a.html - is really useful it has a list of fasteners identified by part number; so that you can go to a local supplier and get the right fastener.
•• Remember that stainless is weaker and needs to have lubricant or equivilent to stop the nut and bolt from welding together. Chroming may weaken fasteners so apparently nickel plating is the go – see posts on this site. If I were doing it again I would investigate the feasibility of home plating of fasteners and other small parts – as DogT has done; I hate to admit how many thousands of dollars I have spent on chrome…
How much do you repair and how much do you refurbish or just leave? Reading some of the posts here I am amazed at how well some parts can be refurbished. I do observe that the cost of refurbishment – say chroming rims and exhausts – can make the exercise marginal. Given my inexperience I found it difficult to determine what was worn out and what wasn’t; I probably erred on replacing more than might have been needed; If I were doing it again now I might post pictures on this site and seek advice.
• Do you remain with stock, or “improve”? The choices are stunning, and the amount you can spend almost limitless. If you are having to replace parts, the dilemma becomes greater, as the incremental increase in cost for improvement is not that great; but of course the cumulative effect can be epic. Do you go for a belt drive, which takes away a major source of oil leaks, as well as apparently making the clutch lighter to operate? If you have to replace your existing sprockets and primary chain it might be worth while. If you have to replace the drive chain and sprockets do you move to a modern sealed chain – which requires matching sprockets – like the one offered by CNW? Do you stick with existing suspension or update the front springs to progressive or get a Lansdowne or Covenant kit? If you need to replace or rechrome the top nuts on the forks, that cost can be put into the cost of a Lansdowne kit (incidentally trainspotters – the name Lansdowne is the middle name of Mr Norton). Do you replace stock steering head bearings with taper bearings (I bought mine from British Spares in NZ; and discovered that they are fractionally wider than the original roller bearing, with the consequence that my expensive new replacement steering head lock doesn’t now work –it is too high)? Do you put in a second gearbox adjuster? (I didn’t – I kept and polished the original; it is now the rustiest piece on the bike…).
• What do you do with electrics? What ignition system? How much of the electrical system do you update? How much will you use your lights? I am told that using the headlight for more than about 2 hours will flatten the battery; and if you have Boyer ignition you will need 9 volts to start it. So do you replace the alternator with a beefier one? Do you fit a modern rectifier and do away with the zenor diode system? http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com might be educational.
• Upgrade brakes?
• How much of the mechanics do you do yourself? I had my engine and gearbox rebuilt. It cost a fortune. But I know it was expertly done, and I am far from confident that I would not have made a mess and had something explode – as it was I did not torque the bolt connecting the engine sprocket properly; with the consequence that it came off during a test run and exploded through the primary cover… Remember the layshaft is a potential death trap; as apparently is the rear brake lever; I have a Norvil spring to stop the lever from falling into the ground if the brake cable snaps.
[/quote]• Do you alter the breather? There are heaps of posts about this. My beautiful engine has small oil leaks at the connection to the rev counter cable and at the tappet cover; I have bought one of the Yamaha XS after market breathers which hopefully will assist; but if you are rebuilding the engine a breather in the crankcase might be the go. Grandpaul on this site can probably supply one.
• If you have to upgrade isolastics do you go for a Norvil one or a Hemmings one; different designs and features? Do you stick with the stock headsteady or go with a Norvil one or a Dave Taylor from RGM, or one of the Colorado or Old Britts ones? I got Norvil; but I think that RGM is cheaper and it has got good reviews here, and I understand is easier to adjust.. Do you use the flash things that Hobot talks about and which I don’t understand (something links? - can anyone enlighten me?)
• Do you stay with a stock engine or really go for it with stunning stuff from the likes of Maney or the American lightweight pistons and rods, and if you have to substantially rebuild it do you go for a bigger barrel like Maney and Norvil offer? Is your crankshaft stuffed and if so do you go for a one piece?
• What sort of jack or lift do you use? I bought a Chinese bike jack and that was ok; but a proper lift would be pure luxury and save your back (I used half of my wife’s old yoga mat to sit and lie on). Also a mechanic’s stool with wheels and somewhere to put tools and all the nuts and bolts would have been great.
Mark it is going to be a really great project; and is definitely doable. If things don’t go fit or go right, pause and think again. You are probably missing something, but it is very easy to miss the obvious. One of my biggest issues was organisation; I was forever looking for the tool or part that I had put down 5 minutes earlier. Lay things out in order and check. If you have adequate room to do things that is great. I look forward to reviewing your progress. Good luck and thanks for the reports to date.