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Dances with Shrapnel said:
The Guzzi listed was the 500cc V8 that had a dustbin fairing. Obviously it had good aero, but 187MPH with 70-80HP ??? I'm not convinced.
JPN Fairing aero discussion
- Thread starter pommie john
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The Guzzi listed was the 500cc V8 that had a dustbin fairing. Obviously it had good aero, but 187MPH with 70-80HP ??? I'm not convinced.
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acotrel said:
From the confusion and desperation I have read, I beg to differ. I am thinking more along the lines of plaque build up and tissue shrinkage in the cranial cavity. Sad.
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Meanwhile back at the ranch, Reynolds numbers were described prior but not yet named to put some useful meaning to the dimensionless Cd numbers. Here's a good article on some yet undiscussed streamlining issues. It says good cycles range from .3 to .6 Cd, Dust Bins to sports/race faired. I have both seen and felt effects of tire spin blast which a fender can help or hurt Cd. Has nice pictures.
http://ruiribeiro.hubpages.com/hub/MOTO ... RODYNAMICS
Nice 0.28 shape and pressure lines by dimensionless analysis only.
Reynolds Dimensionless Number.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/BGH/reynolds.html
http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/calc_reynolds.cfm
RBRacing with a good Cd + area + speed = hp to hit + hp drag eats up.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html
http://ruiribeiro.hubpages.com/hub/MOTO ... RODYNAMICS
Nice 0.28 shape and pressure lines by dimensionless analysis only.
Reynolds Dimensionless Number.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/BGH/reynolds.html
http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/calc_reynolds.cfm
RBRacing with a good Cd + area + speed = hp to hit + hp drag eats up.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html
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The problem seems to be with your RRRs .
Steves picture above well illustrates the large tail sections cotribution to the overall C.o.D. ,
Young Willie was most emphatic about this , as well as no flies on your back to disrupt the Laminar Flow .
The Dual Mufflers abaft on the 72 F 750 were said to cost 5 mph , through incresed DRAG . Wich is tecnicaly
WAKE TURBULANCE , or Vorticies . Thesell waver in cross winds , causeing weaveing and ole snapping .
Steves picture above well illustrates the large tail sections cotribution to the overall C.o.D. ,
Young Willie was most emphatic about this , as well as no flies on your back to disrupt the Laminar Flow .
The Dual Mufflers abaft on the 72 F 750 were said to cost 5 mph , through incresed DRAG . Wich is tecnicaly
WAKE TURBULANCE , or Vorticies . Thesell waver in cross winds , causeing weaveing and ole snapping .
pommie john said:
Wherever we found that 187 mph quoted, it was mentioned that that was the speed that the dustbin faired Guzzi lapped at MIRA, (Motor Industry Research Assoc)
so if the numbers are questionable they of all people should have reliable equipment ... ?
Matt Spencer said:
Another poster editing their posts after !
Can't drag also be due to plain ole wind resistance. ?
If you poke your head up above the fairing, the wind blast on the ole neck muscles feels it straight away,
never mind the part vacuum behind you....
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PROGRESS at last .
Emperor Norton on a velocipede
Emperor Norton on a velocipede
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pommie john said:
The Guzzi employing a dustinbin fairing (ie good streamlining approaching streamliner configuration) would explain a lot. What can you say about the rest of the data points; were they all modern sport, vintage sport?
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Hehe Rohan you are either trying to be funny or baiting us with confusion, as Wind resistance is a fuzzy term with furry factors of surface area and texture, shapes and gaps and of course pure size. Can't do the math w/o Reynolds number scaling so back to bickering and bantering and good ole trial and error that was is and continue to be the final say in sleekness for the conditions. Oh yeah about vortexes, it ya can't beat em join em they say. Internal flow inside of fairing costs drag too. If only a way to use engine heat expanding the air as a type of thruster.
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dont panic , gonna add data . :twisted:
hobot said:
As already noted here on the other thread on the near same subject, coeeficient of drag is indexed in Phil Irvings book as 'Air Resistance'.
So it doesn't come any furrier, fuzzier or funnier than that....
I'm sure that Matt just diverged/edited/posted into airplanes.
I'm outta here.
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" If only a way to use engine heat expanding the air as a type of thruster. "
The debate amongst the ' experts ' is as to the COOLING benefits of the S./ J. World Champs winning E.T.A. 15 hybrid .
Std ETA 15 here , some differances .
NOTE ; the TUNNEL in the ' JEFE II ' World Champion Race plane . :wink:
BENEFITS of the diffuser type finning being a Heat Sink - to maintain temperature stability during ' Pit Stops ' . - gliding - restart - take off .
these chaps wernt exactly backwards , pioneering the ' Bounce & Catch ' Pit stop , The ' Contra - Piston in Head ( Now Standard in all T/r engines )
compression ignition . Main ( outer ) head is fixed ( shimmable ) clearance at T.D.C. , the INNER ( 2/3 bore Dia. ) adjustable concave compresion
adjustment is moveable . Temperature compatability 7 precision setting among benefits.
ALSO , Hard Chromed Piston ( or Liner :wink: ) , and Noteably the ' Drum Valve ' induction . Took decades for this to be fully understood .
Being a pre mix lubricted set up optimised for both range & speed , lubrication becomes crucial . Big end failure is common in all other systems
if striveing to achive comparable distance / tank ( range at speed ).
the Tirkeys are still bickering as to the optimum Cooling benefits of the Cylinder Finning arrangement , whereas its configured to
Produce optimum HEATING of the internal Colling Air Flow ( as steve states INTERNAL DRAG is as significant as External )
therefore overall we achieve THRUST rather than internal impediment . A clean sweep was achieved when errors wernt commited .
The debate amongst the ' experts ' is as to the COOLING benefits of the S./ J. World Champs winning E.T.A. 15 hybrid .
Std ETA 15 here , some differances .
NOTE ; the TUNNEL in the ' JEFE II ' World Champion Race plane . :wink:
BENEFITS of the diffuser type finning being a Heat Sink - to maintain temperature stability during ' Pit Stops ' . - gliding - restart - take off .
these chaps wernt exactly backwards , pioneering the ' Bounce & Catch ' Pit stop , The ' Contra - Piston in Head ( Now Standard in all T/r engines )
compression ignition . Main ( outer ) head is fixed ( shimmable ) clearance at T.D.C. , the INNER ( 2/3 bore Dia. ) adjustable concave compresion
adjustment is moveable . Temperature compatability 7 precision setting among benefits.
ALSO , Hard Chromed Piston ( or Liner :wink: ) , and Noteably the ' Drum Valve ' induction . Took decades for this to be fully understood .
Being a pre mix lubricted set up optimised for both range & speed , lubrication becomes crucial . Big end failure is common in all other systems
if striveing to achive comparable distance / tank ( range at speed ).
the Tirkeys are still bickering as to the optimum Cooling benefits of the Cylinder Finning arrangement , whereas its configured to
Produce optimum HEATING of the internal Colling Air Flow ( as steve states INTERNAL DRAG is as significant as External )
therefore overall we achieve THRUST rather than internal impediment . A clean sweep was achieved when errors wernt commited .
But not before posting that If you want another fast data point, for a naked bike, then the 'replica' 1920s 8 valve has been officially clocked at Lake Gairdner at 159 mph.
A bit of modern knowledge gives a fair old improvement in speed...
Alan will likely have seen this machine in action at Phillip Island, will attest to its speed.
Steve Hari the pilot. 1000cc, on methanol.
Pure horsepower beats fairings, everytime - just open the throttle, like acoterel says.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/pakholt/moto ... indian.jpg
http://gdlauctions.com.au/index.php/auc ... -5-indian/
A bit of modern knowledge gives a fair old improvement in speed...
Alan will likely have seen this machine in action at Phillip Island, will attest to its speed.
Steve Hari the pilot. 1000cc, on methanol.
Pure horsepower beats fairings, everytime - just open the throttle, like acoterel says.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/pakholt/moto ... indian.jpg
http://gdlauctions.com.au/index.php/auc ... -5-indian/
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" coeeficient of drag is indexed in Phil Irvings book as 'Air Resistance'.
Cooee , Ere is the Resistance . :wink:
Cooee , Ere is the Resistance . :wink:
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Dances with Shrapnel said:
The other data points were a mixture of mainly modern bikes. some sports, some unfaired. It's hard to get good info about older bikes. When a magazine does a dyno test and a top speed test on the same bike, at least we've got something to go on.
I do know that not everything printed in magazines or on the internet is accurate, but if you get enough data points it starts to make sense.
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THIS is the Best Method to OPTIMISE the Rideing Position , as regards DRAG . 
We are not sure this is adviseable , in case of accidents .
This chap is to fat , you need to practise getting your Chin between your Knees , for optimum reduction of Frontal Area .
Heres a 200 kmh Bicycle , Velocopede Indeed .
" Sam’s second liner during testing in the MIRA wind tunnel in England. The success of the Norton-powered effort led Wheeler to a full-time position at Norton."
Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/featu ... z2ps1rTN8Z
This appeared to be more comfortable than his previous position
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theres a comparison of streamlineing of the F 750 Norton , Triumph Suzuki , Yamaha & Kawaski in a 73 or 4 issue of C. W. with areas calculated and anaylisis . Noteably the Norton's the lowest frontal area.
The illustrations show rider Chin on Tank , the Top of HELMET just protudeing over the top of the Windscreen . Noteably it is called a WINDSCREEN , the idea being to Hide Behind It , thus " Under the Paint " .
Produce the lowest frontal area compatable with a STREAMLINED Configuration , pilot & Machine . the Contortions become familiar with practise .
Control Operation must be adjusted for effecient use whilst thus presented .
Another advantage of tail fairings is other riders fall of the back , they dont get a tow .
We are not sure this is adviseable , in case of accidents .
This chap is to fat , you need to practise getting your Chin between your Knees , for optimum reduction of Frontal Area .
Heres a 200 kmh Bicycle , Velocopede Indeed .
" Sam’s second liner during testing in the MIRA wind tunnel in England. The success of the Norton-powered effort led Wheeler to a full-time position at Norton."
Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/featu ... z2ps1rTN8Z
This appeared to be more comfortable than his previous position
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theres a comparison of streamlineing of the F 750 Norton , Triumph Suzuki , Yamaha & Kawaski in a 73 or 4 issue of C. W. with areas calculated and anaylisis . Noteably the Norton's the lowest frontal area.
The illustrations show rider Chin on Tank , the Top of HELMET just protudeing over the top of the Windscreen . Noteably it is called a WINDSCREEN , the idea being to Hide Behind It , thus " Under the Paint " .
Produce the lowest frontal area compatable with a STREAMLINED Configuration , pilot & Machine . the Contortions become familiar with practise .
Control Operation must be adjusted for effecient use whilst thus presented .
Another advantage of tail fairings is other riders fall of the back , they dont get a tow .
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