Journey into the unknown..

bill said:

15/16 on the rotor nut 13/16 on the main shaft nut 3/4 on dyno dave push rod seal nut. DO NOT use the stock locking washer and tab instead comstock sells a bellville washer and use some lock tight at 40 lbs torque.

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Thanks Bill, I’ll try to get a washer for it.

Cheers,

cliffa.

I managed to buy a serrated Belleville washer at lunchtime, but had to take a bit of a punt on the size as the shop only had a couple to choose from. I got one with a 16mm inner hole, which I know now is a bit too large, but it's 2.7mm thick. I don't think 40 ft/lbs will even begin to flatten that beast. I may have to use the new tab washer in the interim. Calling Jim Comstock, what size do you use Jim ?

Just a though though, is it possible the original tab washers have been loosening because the nut was tightened to 70 ft/lbs, and got crushed? Or another theory, the circlip behind the clutch (which is a stupid idea) over time was being forced backward and manifested itself as play at the front?

Cheers,

cliffa

cliffa said:

Calling Jim Comstock, what size do you use Jim ?

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https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/belville-washer.9579/

cliffa said:

Just a though though, is it possible the original tab washers have been loosening because the nut was tightened to 70 ft/lbs, and got crushed? Or another theory, the circlip behind the clutch (which is a stupid idea) over time was being forced backward and manifested itself as play at the front?

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Also, originally, the clutch nut just had a lock washer.
Later this was changed to a nut, hardened steel washer and tab washer. I think there can be a problem when owners fit the tab washer (because they think it's missing) with the lock washer instead of the hardened washer.

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/8/chaincases-chains-sprockets-clutch-alternator#
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/15114/lockwasher-clutch-nut-e6266-a2-373-

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/207/chaincases-chains-sprockets-clutch-alternator
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/16091/washer-clutch-fixing

the tab is just plainly to soft to be any good for the job.

IMHO the hardened steel washer is to small on the OD to do proper job. if you was to stay with the tab washer the hardened washer should be at least as large on the OD as the tab washer BUT i feel the tab is way to soft.

L.A.B. said:

Also, originally, the clutch nut just had a lock washer.
Later this was changed to a nut, hardened steel washer and tab washer. I think there can be a problem when owners fit the tab washer (because they think it's missing) with the lock washer instead of the hardened washer.

[/QUOTE

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L.A.B. said:

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/belville-washer.9579/




Also, originally, the clutch nut just had a lock washer.
Later this was changed to a nut, hardened steel washer and tab washer. I think there can be a problem when owners fit the tab washer (because they think it's missing) with the lock washer instead of the hardened washer.

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/8/chaincases-chains-sprockets-clutch-alternator#
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/15114/lockwasher-clutch-nut-e6266-a2-373-

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/207/chaincases-chains-sprockets-clutch-alternator
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/16091/washer-clutch-fixing

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Thanks L.A.B., so you think the hardened washer spreads the pressure & stops the tab washer from wearing / crushing ? I have to say, that does seem very plausible. I guess the Belleville washer eliminates the problem entirely though.


Cheers,

cliffa.

bill said:

the tab is just plainly to soft to be any good for the job.

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Thanks Bill, I'll probably have to go with the tab washer as an interim fix and get some correct washers from Mr. Comstock.


Cheers,

cliffa.

cliffa said:

Thanks L.A.B., so you think the hardened washer spreads the pressure & stops the tab washer from wearing / crushing ? I have to say, that does seem very plausible.

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Well, that does seem to be the idea.

I've had no problems with it so far.

cliffa said:

I guess the Belleville washer eliminates the problem entirely though.

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Yes, I'm sure it does.

Good lord – light dawns! Twice in my life that I can remember, I've had a clutch centre nut 'inexplicably' loosen while out on the road! Once on a BSA and once on my Norton. It had never occurred to me that the tab washer alone was inadequate because of its softness, and I've never encountered another, hardened washer there – presumably because all of my old British bikes had lost them through inattentive previous owners – and because I've been too unimaginative to explore possible causes! It really pays to dip into seemingly unrelated threads sometimes, I've learned something here ... When it happened on my Norton, the chap who so generously let me use his commercial workshop to replace the tab washer, all free of charge, said to me, "If I see the mechanic who did that up I'll kick his arse!" Meaning me, as he knew full well, and I had to laugh ... But in my ignorance it seemed a little unfair, and he too said nothing about the softness of the tab washer, or the need for a hardened or lock washer.

Any recommended sources of Belleville washers in the UK? TIA (As an aside, I wonder if the 'Belleville' name here is related to a 19th-century design of (mainly) marine water-tube boiler, also known as Belleville ... Sorry, I'm subject to some rather random interests!)

The weather was amazing here today, so I decided to do the work outside. The back of my neck is now glowing like an LED stoplight.

Anyway, I digress, As you good folks told me the 1/2" WW for the crank, and a 3/4" a/f (19mm) were the correct for the clutch nut ( which was already fitted with a pushrod seal nut) Hey - Ho. I have a battery impact driver (rattle gun) and that made short work of getting those off. If you don't have one already I can highly recommend them. I have now identified the belt drive as a Norvil variant. This of course is the most difficult to fit, as the front pulley needs to have recess machined in it Anyway there was no hardened steel washer under the clutch nut, and when I went to bend back the tab on the tab washer it just fell off !! Before removing the clutch I did notice quite a lot of "wobble" on the outer body. has anybody else noticed this on a Norvil setup? Once I got it off and span it the bearings seemed to be smooth and silent, so maybe this is to be expected? One thing that definitely looks like it need replacing very soon is the clutch center, as it's quite grooved.

Anyway here are some pics of today's progress..











Cutting the case for the outrigger was a pain, but looking at the length of what would be an unsupported mainshaft I really think it's worth keeping it.

More updates tomorrow...


Cheers,

cliffa.

i have had to machine e recess on the norvil crank pulley before also. it seems he is machining the taper to large and just another example his junk.
like i posted the tab washer is TO SOFT to be of any benefit.
next question is what clutch plates are in it now as the bronze plates are well known to do this and i will not run or recommend them to stay in a bike.

cliffa said:

have now identified the belt drive as a Norvil variant. This of course is the most difficult to fit, as the front pulley needs to have recess machined in it Anyway there was no hardened steel washer under the clutch nut, and when I went to bend back the tab on the tab washer it just fell off !!
One thing that definitely looks like it need replacing very soon is the clutch center, as it's quite grooved.

.

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bill said:

i have had to machine e recess on the norvil crank pulley before also. it seems he is machining the taper to large and just another example his junk.
like i posted the tab washer is TO SOFT to be of any benefit.
next question is what clutch plates are in it now as the bronze plates are well known to do this and i will not run or recommend them to stay in a bike.

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Hi Bill,
Did you machine the pulley only, or did you take some off the Alton spacer too? I think they are Barnett plates, I didn’t really look at them yesterday, but plan to today. It didn’t look like there were any bronze plates though. Which plates do you recommend?

Cheers,

cliffa.

Neat case cutting there Cliffa!

Fast Eddie said:

Neat case cutting there Cliffa!

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Thank you Sir !! I used an electric jigsaw, but it was difficult to control and went slightly awry. I'm going to fit a thin plate over the hole anyway to stop the ingress of chain lube etc. (Hobots idea)

cliffa said:

Thank you Sir !! I used an electric jigsaw, but it was difficult to control and went slightly awry. I'm going to fit a thin plate over the hole anyway to stop the ingress of chain lube etc. (Hobots idea)

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I've run my commando for year's with a norvil belt primary and maney outrigger with out anything to protect the inside of the primary case with out problems
Hobot does a fair bit of riding on unmade roads so probably needs to seal the case
I have Barnet plates in my clutch it works superbly, no wobble or slip or drag
Hope it all goes well with the Alton ,are you going to use one of "Andy chains" iwis starter chains?

baz said:

I've run my commando for year's with a norvil belt primary and maney outrigger with out anything to protect the inside of the primary case with out problems
Hobot does a fair bit of riding on unmade roads so probably needs to seal the case
I have Barnet plates in my clutch it works superbly, no wobble or slip or drag
Hope it all goes well with the Alton ,are you going to use one of "Andy chains" iwis starter chains?

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Hi Baz, do you know if the Norvil setup uses the standard clutch centre, or is that something they make themselves? Yep I've got one of Andy's IWIS chains. They look amazing quality (to good to hide). Do you lube your chain at all?

Cheers,

cliffa.

cliffa said:

Hi Baz, do you know if the Norvil setup uses the standard clutch centre, or is that something they make themselves? Yep I've got one of Andy's IWIS chains. They look amazing quality (to good to hide). Do you lube your chain at all?

Cheers,

cliffa.

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It's a standard commando center from what I remember, you have to fit a sealed bearing in place of the open one,
I don't have a Alton starter ,
I only asked about the chain because i had read of premature chain wear

cliffa said:

Thank you Sir !! I used an electric jigsaw, but it was difficult to control and went slightly awry. I'm going to fit a thin plate over the hole anyway to stop the ingress of chain lube etc. (Hobots idea)

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You have cut it so neat, I would suggest you could simply fill the gap with silicone.

Unless you really engineer it well, I think a plate is introducing another potential failure mode into the system.

Bugger! never thought of silicone, but the gaps on the left are too wide I think. Anyway, I was already in the process of making it....

It's 0.8mm aluminium, and I drilled and M5 tapped the outrigger and locktite'd the screws in. That way it will move with the gearbox if I need to adjust the belt tension. I also put blobs of non setting sticky gasket goo between the outrigger casting and the disc which should dampen any tendency to work the disc loose. I drilled a hole so the old ME logo can still be seen (also it would have pushed the plate off the case)

Obviously the primary case I took off was also cut, and there was a fair bit of crap in there, However the main reason I wanted to do this was that my clutch is all rusty




I'm now faffing around with the Norvil pulley,


Cheers,

cliffa.

I have not done an alton and have no plans to as IMHO the CNW is a far better option. as to clutch plates the green barnetts are OK but i also like the RGM high torque settup with the narrower frictions. in my bike i have the 750 surflex plates.

cliffa said:

Hi Bill,
Did you machine the pulley only, or did you take some off the Alton spacer too? I think they are Barnett plates, I didn’t really look at them yesterday, but plan to today. It didn’t look like there were any bronze plates though. Which plates do you recommend?

Cheers,

cliffa.

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