I fixed it.....the wet sumping that is. (2014)

I wonder if it would be very difficult to fit a Triumph oil pump to a commando engine ?

olChris said:

phil yates said:

olChris said:

My approach was.. A slack zip tie that fit between kicker and valve. Pull the zip tie off and the valve opens auto due to the spring fitted. Cant forget to turn on. If i forget to shut valve off for a few days, no big deal.

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Very impressive piece of gear. You could get away with telling folk your Commando is actually a submarine, wish I could!
How many times a day do you have to cut and replace that plastic tie? Must get very expensive.

The MkIII need not look like a submarine with valve levers. It came with a factory fitted non return valve. This shit ain't needed.
The MIII came with lots off Commando improvements except combat performance. It certainly doesn't drain oil back to crankcase then depressingly all over your polished cement garage floor. Or your bed if kept there.

This is the most outrageous abortion I've ever seen hanging off a Commando. Beaten only by some types sitting on the seat, who should have in fact gone down in a submarine. Forever!

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..

Mmmmmh, Your ignorance re "wet sumping" is noted... Have a nice day....

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That's the second "have a nice day" you've offered at night.
I gather that lever you've added is to prevent oil from your tank draining to your sump when your bike is not in use.
If I got that wrong then I apologise. What then does it do? Simple question.

Maybe I can comment further if you tell me what else it is there for.

Phil

By "wet sumping" I mean "after" I ride it and put the bike away, not during the ride itself.

SteveA said:

I think the 'no jubilee clip' bullshit started in the UK with the CRMC, most Nortons running with CRMC have the regulation type crimped O clip to saitisfy the scrutineer, and a jubilee clip to hold the hose on!

Of course the rules states that these clips are required on all oil hoses subject to internal pressure!.....no its not worth having the discussion!

As fow MkIIIs....well I used a MkIII timing cover, and each time I took it off the plunger was stuck in......it never worked...I nearly bought a new timing cover for my current build...from Norman White, when I told him that the only one Andover Norton supply today is the MkIII design, he said, every MKIII cover I ever removed has the plunger stuck in.....


The idea of a decent ball valve in the cover sounds good and about the only sensible engineering 'solution', but the idea of a serviceable oil pump sounds good too, as does using a Comnoz style breather that helps clear the sump quickly....but the real deal for a race bike...is drain and refill, after use, or before next use....for a road bike....I would recommend riding more often ;-)

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I didn't spec the rebuild of my MkIII, twas done five years before I bought it in the USA. Not pulling the timing cover off either just to look. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. After 3.5 months non use during its import, not much oil was missing from the tank. And pumped back quite quickly on start up.

Can someone please tell me what issue they have with this?
Seems we see pretty (sorry, ugly) pictures of solutions but not what is bothering the few who have put the manual on/off doover onto the side off an otherwise pretty machine? Any enlightenment would be much appreciated.

acotrel said:

I don't use the Seeley very often so I disconnect the feed line and put a bolt up it and tighten the clip. There is still the danger of forgetting to re-connect it, and recently I even left a clip loose on the return line and wondered why it was pissing oli onto the ground. I've bought a ball valve however I've never been game enough to use it. Our racing controlling body has recently got smart and brought in a rule that jubilee clips may not be used on external oil lines. All fittings must be of the permanent (marine ? ) type. That looks like being a problem for anyone racing a Norton twin which wet sumps. The bullshit never stops in historic racing.

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This rule is a little bit of overkill for any British twin being raced for just the oil tank, however when I last raced many moons ago I first came across a certain big thumper Jap bike being raced on the circuit that had the plastic oil pipe that kept blowing off because it was held by just jubilee clips, and again later on another circuit when it happened again and I came off when I found the oil, then the leaders came round and fell off on the same spilt oil. The oil pressure on the Jap bike must have been 60 psi-and this was to be contained by just jubilee clips :!:

phillyskip said:

By "wet sumping" I mean "after" I ride it and put the bike away, not during the ride itself.

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I guessed that had to be what you meant. The description threw me. If it wasn't wet sumping (of a sort) during operation, then returning to tank, we'd all be suffering severe bearing failure.

Phil

I do not ride my Atlas frequently enough, therefore I need an anti wet sump valve, a timing case mod, or drain the sump every time I crank it up. I long ago (back in the 60's) put a tapered plug gas cock in the suction line.

The objections to an anti wet sump valve are:

1) forget to open it and the engine is toast
2) ugly
3) restrict oil flow
4) might shift position from vibration and close
5) if fitted with an electrical switch, might fail and leave you on the road

The advantages of a tapered plug gas cock are:

1) smallest external size relative to bore
2) Stay put due to the spring load on the plug (like the springs on carb adjusting screws)
3) repairable (the plug can be lapped in as needed)
4) the plug extends thru the body and can be accessed to fit a switch



The gas cock is 1/4 inch tube compression fitting. I turned down most of the compression nut threads to make a PEX type barb, filling in the remaining thread with solder. The internal port dia is 0.260, and the bore thru the plug was 0.200 which I increased to 0.216 (inches). The internal dia of the oil manifold lines on 750 engines is 0.188 in, thus oil restriction is not present. In regard to oil restriction, a slight reduction in bore dia is negligible if the restricted length is short (say 10 bore diameters or less).

Most of the gas cock fits inside the flexible oil lines, minimizing the ugly factor.
The plug does not shift from vibration. No need to safety tie.

The fitted switch is Normally Open, rated 1 amp at 28 vdc, 2 amp at 14 vdc. The terminals are solder type, but I will be encapsulating the lead wires in a short piece of shrink tube fitted over the switch body and filled with epoxy resin. This will make the switch, terminals and lead in wire monolithic. Failure of solder joints due to vibration is caused by relative bending between solder joined parts (like bending a piece of wire back and forth until it breaks).

I will be grounding out the magneto points when the switch is actuated (valve closed). I would recommend others to similarly ground out the points or ignition sensor. This is a fail safe configuration and will not shut you down if the switch or wiring open circuits.

Other details to note, should you wish to duplicate the mod to the gas cock:

Include an anti-rotation pin on the "L" bracket
Include an anti-rotation device on the figure "8" cam that actuates the switch plunger. I used washers with an internal key tab (found on electronic devices)
Mount the switch plunger pointing down...it is not waterproof. If this is a concern, mount a splash guard over the entire assembly.

Slick

2 Amps is really not enough. 5A would be adequate. 10A would be ideal, a micro-switch is available in that range. I think my Pazon pulls 3A and the brake light probably more. I looked into those push switches and wasn't impressed. The PEX valve on mine is a full 1/2" and with the push on connections only about an inch shows. The worst part is the clamps and the red handle which could be painted. I hardly notice mine when standing back looking at the bike. It's not like some of those long handled things you see. A splash guard would hide the whole thing. Switch failure is not an issue, disconnect the push on connectors and wire it back to normal in about 1 minute. My switch has to be energized to have ignition, so if the valve turns, ignition goes off. Big advantage of these valves is take them out to drain the tank. I know to some the whole thing is a non-issue, but I get leaks if I let it wet sump.

olChris said:

L.A.B. said:

olChris said:

My approach was.. A slack zip tie that fit between kicker and valve. Pull the zip tie off and the valve opens auto due to the spring fitted. Cant forget to turn on.

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What about the electric starter? :shock:

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I make it a point of not using it... gets one mild kick/push with no ignition (after fuel n oil been on for a min or so) Sits for 2 months then starts 2nd kick..... Works for me>>

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Save some weight Chris.
Remove the starter.

DogT said:

2 Amps is really not enough. 5A would be adequate. 10A would be ideal, a micro-switch is available in that range. I think my Pazon pulls 3A and the brake light probably more. I looked into those push switches and wasn't impressed. The PEX valve on mine is a full 1/2" and with the push on connections only about an inch shows. The worst part is the clamps and the red handle which could be painted. I hardly notice mine when standing back looking at the bike. It's not like some of those long handled things you see. A splash guard would hide the whole thing. Switch failure is not an issue, disconnect the push on connectors and wire it back to normal in about 1 minute. My switch has to be energized to have ignition, so if the valve turns, ignition goes off. Big advantage of these valves is take them out to drain the tank. I know to some the whole thing is a non-issue, but I get leaks if I let it wet sump.

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DogT & others:

2 amps is enough to ground the points. Also, this is a fail safe mode. If you must go thru the switch to power up the ign, you could use a relay, or better, fabricate a bracket to accept a 10 amp micro switch. If this switch proves to be a problem, that will be my next step. For 850 Cdos with larger oil plumbing, a 3/8 gas cock might be the choice.

And yes, one could undo the connectors and bypass the switch in a New York minute, but you have to diagnose the problem first, and it will probably be dark and raining.

I am not advocating this device for those who may be opposed or skeptical, but to give those who feel a need for an anti wet sump valve, an option.

Cheers

Slick

The switch/lever idea is not for everyone. Only those of us that think we need it and maybe we don't, it just saves me a lot of oil drips.

I don't understand the 'fail safe' part though I may be ignorant. Seems to me if I made mine to ground the ignition and the switch failed in the open position, I could conceivably start the bike with the oil lever off? I'd rather have it fail so I had to fix it than be able to start with the oil shut off. Educate me if I'm wrong here, it's happened before and will again I'm sure. Sometimes my logic fails me at my age.

I've thought about the relay thing too, but that gets even more complicated, I'd rather just use the 10A u-switch. Heck, I was thinking about using a prox switch at one time with a magnet in the lever and a relay. I like the prox switch because it's water proof and very small, but that too gets more complicated with having to drive the relay.

I didn't mean to indicate your idea is not good, just indicating my preference. We all do what we think we need to do. I did miss the part about grounding instead of switching though, sorry about that.

Dave
69S

Since when does drips have anything to do with wet sump, unless over 6800 rpm making Combat engine into an elastic cartoon character blowing its stack. Over filled sump plus full oil tank will pump excess out of tank vent and maybe cap too but should not weep oil anywhere else. If not for common enough hi centering playing or loading in rescue truck I'd weld a finger bar on sump plug to handle tool-less into catch pan and back into bike or brush fire depending on color and haste to leave. I want some wet sump in mine thank you so may even put extra oil tank tap in to dribble known amount in on Peel with mechanical fail safe shut off - in case my recovery times between crashes are too long.

Dave:

I see your point....to you fail safe shuts down the engine, to me, fail safe lets the engine run. As an aerospace engineer, we always wanted systems to run should the most likely fault develop.

You are right....you could conceivably start the engine with a wiring fault with the valve closed. But this scenario involves TWO faults...the wiring AND the operator for failing to open the valve. Perhaps a good pilot should use the anti wet sump valve to kill the engine...that way an open circuit would be detected ( certainly this should be done periodically). I do not think the oil flow stoppage would be harmful while the engine coasts to a stop. Your concern could be eliminated by putting in a dash mounted LED that would light when the points (or sensor) were grounded. An open circuit would not allow the LED to light.

Each of us has to deal with the wet sump issue as we see best... and your suggestion that a 10 amp Microswitch is preferable to a relay is correct...that is how I would go.

Thànks for responding.

Slick

I see Hobot has jumped in here while I was posting... Only Hobot has the "Hobot" way of dealing with issues!

hobot said:

Since when does drips have anything to do with wet sump, unless over 6800 rpm making Combat engine into an elastic cartoon character blowing its stack. Over filled sump plus full oil tank will pump excess out of tank vent and maybe cap too but should not weep oil anywhere else. If not for common enough hi centering playing or loading in rescue truck I'd weld a finger bar on sump plug to handle tool-less into catch pan and back into bike or brush fire depending on color and haste to leave. I want some wet sump in mine thank you so may even put extra oil tank tap in to dribble known amount in on Peel with mechanical fail safe shut off - in case my recovery times between crashes are too long.

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I just can't understand hobot what all the fuss in here about preventing wet sumping is about. Hardly anyone, if anyone seems to know themselves.

texasSlick said:

Dave:

I see your point....to you fail safe shuts down the engine, to me, fail safe lets the engine run. As an aerospace engineer, we always wanted systems to run should the most likely fault developed.

You are right....you could conceivably start the engine with a wiring fault with the valve closed. But this scenario involves TWO faults...the wiring AND the operator for failing to open the valve. Perhaps a good pilot should use the anti wet sump valve to kill the engine...that way an open circuit would be detected ( certainly this should be done periodically). I do not think the oil flow stoppage would be harmful while the engine coasts to a stop. Your concern could be eliminated by putting in a dash mounted LED that would light when the points (or sensor) were grounded. An open circuit would not allow the LED to light.

Each of us has to deal with the wet sump issue as we see best...

Thànks for responding.

Slick

I see Hobot has jumped in here while I was posting... Only Hobot has the "Hobot" way of dealing with issues!

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Slick
A lot of discussion so far about the wet sump issue.
What is the issue exactly? Is it a secret?

In over forty years of flying, I've never heard of shutting an engine down with an anti wet sump valve.
Mixture shut off in light aircraft is used, as you would well know.
Jet engines, never heard of an anti wet sump valve either.

Phil Yates wrote:

Slick
A lot of discussion so far about the wet sump issue.
What is the issue exactly? Is it a secret?

In over forty years of flying, I've never heard of shutting an engine down with an anti wet sump valve.
Mixture shut off in light aircraft is used, as you would well know.
Jet engines, never heard of an anti wet sump valve either.

Reply:
C'mon Phil...cut me some slack here.... or are you being as fascitous as I can be?

Cheers

Slick

PS: PM me if you really need to know the anti wet sump valve issue.

There would be little use for a anti wet sump valve on a wet sump engine as a good deal of light aircraft have. :roll:
Cue the other guy adding a picture of a Triumph sports car to keep it off topic,followed by argue guy then Seeley guy,rounded up by Norton on its side in the woods guy for the win. :lol:

Time Warp said:

There would be little use for a anti wet sump valve on a wet sump engine as a good deal of light aircraft have. :roll:
Cue the other guy adding a picture of a Triumph sports car to keep it off topic,followed by argue guy then Seeley guy,rounded up by Norton on its side in the woods guy for the win. :lol:

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And then you follow next do you Time?
Can't see a spec of Norton dust in your response at all.

But whilst you are making non Norton post, then wanting to shut it down,
What dry sump aircraft engine are we talking about? If you are maybe talking
some pea fart ultalight, I haven't dealt with them. Wet sump Lycombing and Continental,
hence my original question.

texasSlick said:

Phil Yates wrote:

Slick
A lot of discussion so far about the wet sump issue.
What is the issue exactly? Is it a secret?

In over forty years of flying, I've never heard of shutting an engine down with an anti wet sump valve.
Mixture shut off in light aircraft is used, as you would well know.
Jet engines, never heard of an anti wet sump valve either.

Reply:
C'mon Phil...cut me some slack here.... or are you being as fascitous as I can be?

Cheers

Slick

PS: PM me if you really need to know the anti wet sump valve issue.

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Will PM you Slick, too much agro in here for public discussion.

Phil

hobot said:

Since when does drips have anything to do with wet sump....

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All I know is when I installed the valve and didn't let the oil sit in the sump, which mine will do because of infrequent rides, I stopped getting drips of oil off the bottom of the engine. The valve also saves me the smokey start up if I don't want to drain the sump. I think I've said it many times, if I rode it several times a week, it wouldn't be an issue and I wouldn't have a valve.

Slick, I see your point. I guess the grounding method would require some sort of display, not unlike the modern dash lights that self checks on start up. I'm just trying to keep some semblance of 'original look' and the oil valve is the only thing I can think I have that isn't looking right but it's not that obvious.

I would like to swap out those unreliable lucas stop light switches for u-switches though.

Dave